Like many things involving kids, different paths. Dual enrollment may work well for some kids. APs may be better option. Neither of the above may work best for other kids. Just an option to consider and evaluate.
@ucbalumnus - yes you could, but College Board makes you find a high school that will administer the test. This can be easier said than done (though it certainly is possible - just get started early). If you take the course through FLVS they will help you with this part, and pay for the AP exam (but you’re stuck doing the entire FLVS course).
I wish that College Board would make AP administration more like SAT subject tests. I.e., you could simply schedule it and show up on the day of the test.
We felt we were mostly on the state school track in terms of college (we would not get any aid) so DE made sense, but looking back I realize that AP would have worked just as well in certain subjects. And then you have a shot of the elites taking the credits (though not always).
A good friend of my son who went back to traditional school has almost as many credits as my son, thanks to AP.
The other potential negative to DE is that your child is expected to function like an adult college student. The schools will not talk with you as a parent, etc. They do not hold the student’s hand.
For our son (who had been homeschooling a long time) we felt this was a net positive, but he was 17 and 18 the years that he was doing DE.
That’s another thing to think about.
And this is what I love about College Confidential - so many different perspectives. I only wish I had discovered it 6-7 years ago!
I would frequently attend homeschooling conferences, where you hear - generally - a certain style of getting your student maximized for college.
I’ve been to traditional high school with my older son, and there you hear another means of doing it.
This is a great site where you can learn so much!
(Assuming DE by going to a college to take a college course, not DE with the course being taught in the high school.)
This might be a positive, in that the student can get a taste of how a college course is run and what students are expected to do with one or two courses, rather than finding out all at once when they go to college full time and have to make the adjustment to college format with much less hand holding all at once with four or five courses.
^^yes on both counts! @ucbalumnus
S has used DE to take things like Japanese and General Psychology, both of which were interests of his not offered at his HS.
After those two, he decided he rather fulfill his history requirements as DE instead of AP. The pain-in-the-butt factor is much less, and the DE classes are free compared with about $100 each for the APs. This freed up blocks in his HS schedule to explore art, drama and choir, and to take extra Honors science classes - all of that also due to interest and exploration.
When S and I talk about rigor and the level of preparation among the CC students, he says that the DE classes have just as much depth, but they move faster so he’s not as bored as he is in his HS classes (even Honors / AP classes). When he asks a question in DE, he gets an answer and usually a discussion. When he asks similar level questions in HS, he sometimes gets told that the question is outside the scope of the class and the teacher moves on to a more basic question from someone else.
There were 36 students in S’s recent Western Civ class. Only 22 took the final and not all of them passed. That said, the structure of the DE environment meant that the professor could teach to the high end of the range instead of to the middle. Struggling students were expected to take advantage of tutoring and office hours rather than slowing the pace of the class. So yes, the CC environment isn’t aimed at the best of the best of the best, but I think the tippy top students may well be better served in the DE environment than in HS, at least where our specific CC and HS are concerned.
Re: exploration - For S, exploration is the whole point of getting general ed out of the way. As an undergrad, I resented essentially having to repeat coursework I’d already mastered, things like US History and Freshman Comp., and S is the same way. I would much rather have used those course blocks to take something new, to… explore. 
With General Ed covered, S will have much more freedom to take classes beyond the scope of GE, and to double major if he chooses.
Taking US History and Western Civ as DE courses has shown my S some valuable things. His Western Civ instructor was so-so, but his US History prof was amazing. S and I have had good discussions about how much difference the professor makes not only in the palatability of the content and the class experience, but in S’s own interest in exploring more history. History is not one of S’s interests, but he’s mentioned going through the course catalog to see what else the US History professor teaches. He says he doubts that a similar continuing interest would have come from APUSH because S is turned way off by busywork and teaching to the test. He sees that as inefficient and a waste of his time and effort. If he wants college credit, he’d rather just take the college class for its own sake and get the credit directly.
Anyhow, I’m sure the DE experience varies widely depending on the kid, the HS and the CC or university involved. For us, it’s been a Godsend for a GATE kid who was bored in even the most advanced HS classes.
I didn’t really understand the DE program and thought it was for students who really weren’t AP level. My kids took a few AP’s, but I was of the ‘high school is for high school’ group (I also do not think AP classes are ‘just like college’).
I do regret that thinking now. My daughter who is majoring in engineering (which we didn’t know would be her path) could have taken DE English and history courses at her high school (just another class, no need to go to the community college) and then not needed to take them in college, which would have been great for her. She’s not a great test taker, so needing 5’s on AP tests wasn’t a good plan to get college credit. DE, even with a B, would have received that credit (although she probably would have had A’s as she’s pretty good at classroom work).
DD’s school offers both AP and DE, so we had a long talk with the GC about the benefits of both. DD’s school partners with several colleges, and some DE classes can be taken on the HS campus, some at the local CC, some at the local four-year state schools (we have more than one and the cost depends on what college is sponsoring the class), and some are offered as distance courses at an OOS college. Essentially, in our area, the DE classes are great for kids who plan on attending either community college or a four-year college in state as all state schools will accept the credits for passing grades. It is possible that a student can earn enough credits through DE for an associate’s degree and eliminate many of the general studies requirements for various majors. They recommend DE for kids who plan on attending college in state and may be “on the cusp” for AP credits.
However, for the student who plans to attend OOS, the GC said that AP is the better option because most college and universities accept AP regardless of where the class was taken. The downside is that with AP, you may or may not receive credit based on the score you get on the test. They recommend AP for any students who are strong academically and/or planning on attending college out of state.
We have several types of DE available, and DS has done about all of them. (And he does have a life.) Really, I think that having so many DE options has saved him from having to do a bunch of online classes and/or graduate early.
It isn’t for getting undergrad credits out of the way – we don’t know where he’ll be going, and the options have a wide range of what credits they will take, ranging from none to lots. Similarly, no way to tell what general eds will work for him.
He takes the courses he does because he’s run out of classes to take at the HS in math/science/computer science and because the 6-period day at his HS didn’t allow him to fit in even the 4 years of core classes expected by many colleges. If you take Calc BC as a sophomore and want to go into a STEM major, you can’t just say, “Well that’s enough math. I hope I remember some math 3 years from now.”
So, he will have variously done the following during high school:
– 7 APs that are just APs
– 3 APs that are really DE classes taught on the HS campus (Calc 1&2, Macroecon)
– 1 AP taken based on online not-for-credit classes (AoPS for AP Comp Sci)
– 1 IB that is just IB (but took equivalent AP test – Spanish)
– 3 DE on the community college campus, summer & evenings during the year (Intro Bio, World Civ, Discrete Math)
– 1 DE though a remote community college (also in California) online (multivariable)
– 3 DE at our local UC campus during summer (Intro Geology, research credits)
– 3+ DE at our local UC campus next year (senior year) where he will attend in the afternoons/evenings
All community college classes are basically free. UC classes are $250/unit.
Students can take DE at the community college campus starting the summer after 8th grade. It is very normal for HS kids to take community college DE here. It’s not that normal but not unheard of to take UC campus DE.
I took a couple Calif community college classes (Geology and Genetics) during HS 30+ years ago. I don’t think I got DE credit, but maybe the hours transferred. Community college was free to everyone in California back then, so I didn’t need to go through any DE hoops.
As someone who teaches that freshman comp course, I’d answer @jrcsmom 's question this way: Plenty. Writing is not a check box, but a skill that develops over time and with practice. Most assignments in that frosh comp class will be exercises in personal exploration as well as in the crafting of essays. Yes, I’m biased. And yes I’m assuming the student wouldn’t be writing the same exact papers. However, I also noticed when college shopping with my youngest, there wasn’t a single private school she looked at (and she only looked at about 10, so I’m in no way making claims about “all,” “most,” or even “many” colleges) that hadn’t changed the freshman writing requirement enough to exclude giving credit for dual credit courses in composition. They took DE credits, but that comp credit was going to come in as an elective.
Well both myself and son attended state schools, so had he opted to attend a private, I’m not certain how many of his credits would have applied, but since the only private he applied to was in our home state, I believe they had an agreement to accept at least a portion of the credits.
For us, it was worth the gamble - and having that completed English comp course (as well as a few of his required humanities courses) allowed him to take 2 300 level Spanish courses his freshman year and he will be completing a Spanish minor in conjunction with his engineering degree.
I guess my question to those opposed to dual credit is this:
If a student, for financial or other reasons can’t go directly to a 4 year residential college and opts to complete core requirements and then transfer to a different school and that student completes high school and enrolls in a local community college to complete those requirements, should those courses transfer?
So if a student still in high school who opts to dual enroll and takes the same course at that same community college, it should not transfer?
Guess that leaves me confused.
Transfer policies differ regionally, and they differ for public vs. private. In general, the higher a school’s ranking the less likely they are to accept transfer credit from CCs. On the flip side, many community colleges will have guaranteed transfer arrangements with at least one state school or public university system.
Examples: Our California CC guarantees that a specific set of core classes will transfer to either the UC or Cal State system, subject to a few limitations (e.g. GPA, might be some differences for engineering, some courses don’t count toward a major). S could easily transfer 30-45 hours under such a plan (10 - 15 classes).
Tulane, one of the schools my S is interested in, accepts a max of 15 hours of CC credit, so roughly 5 classes. S will have to pick and choose what he wants to transfer.
Some of the tippy top privates won’t accept any CC classes at all.
Once we started down the DE road, we examined the policies at a variety of different schools. Places like HPYS are pretty much lotteries to get in, so it didn’t make sense for S to restrict his DE opportunities based on a minuscule possibility of getting in somewhere that wouldn’t take the credits.
Instead, we’re looking at the set of schools that offer big NMF awards, and those schools will take all or most of his credits.
As an example, if S chooses OU or Bama, he gets 10 semesters of near full ride, including grad school if he still has semesters left when he finishes undergrad. He’ll go in with almost junior standing due to his AP and DE credits. If he’s strategic about it, he will be able to double major and finish a master’s degree (or have up to two years of med school paid for) before his 10 semesters are used up.
So there are tradeoffs. Elites probably won’t accept many / any CC credits. On the other hand, lots of excellent schools will accept all or most of them, and that translates to more freedom to explore and a significant cost savings.
@suzyQ7 You are right that many elite schools will not accept a whole lot of dual credit or AP, but on the other end are schools like Alabama and Oklahoma, which offer merit scholarships for four or five years, both undergraduate and graduate. So a merit-aid or NMF student who arrives at one of these schools with 60 hours can get not only a tuition-free undergraduate degree, but a free graduate or even medical degree (at Oklahoma) as well.
My son is at Bama and will soon be beginning his 4th year of classes.
Personally I was well versed on the dual enrollment options when I paid for him to enroll. His junior year he had the option to pay for a dual enrollment ‘college algebra’ course. I said I wouldn’t pay for it because his intended major was already engineering and I knew that calculus would be the first required math course. All of the other students in the same ‘math track’ at his school took the DE course, my son sat in the pre-calc class with mostly seniors for whom that would be their final math course and were ‘less advanced’ and he was a bit resentful that I was holding him back, but it didn’t make sense to me to pay for a class that I knew would not provide credit he needed.
On the other hand he had the option to take DE courses for Spanish. His teacher discouraged it and said that those who could manage the DE should also be able to test out of the entry level courses. I opted to pay for those DE credits because although my son could have just tested into the higher level courses, taking the DE courses kept the grades on his transcript. So I essentially ‘bought’ a solid GPA for him to begin college with.
My son did apply to one reach (MIT) and they may not have accepted much of that transfer credit (I’m sure I looked into it at the time, but that was years ago), but MIT also said throughout the application process that their emphasis was on taking the most challenging courses available to you and at my son’s school that was the DE courses - his small, rural school still only offers 1 AP course, so even if they wouldn’t transfer those credits, opting not to take those courses most likely still would have had a negative impact on his application there.
Bama was definitely very generous on accepting the credit and all of the DE courses he took filled requirements accept for 1 course (I believe it was poli sci course he took to fill his HS government requirement) which went to elective credit.
But my question above was really for those in this thread that seem to be discouraging taking DE courses. Some of the comments above strongly suggest that HS students shouldn’t be taking DE at all, while others strongly suggest that those courses should not be considered equivalent to college core courses.
I would bet those same people would suggest to students that aren’t aiming for elites that if finances are tight that an option to borrowing money would be to attend a local CC for their core courses. For some of my son’s DE courses he was taught the same material by the same instructor as the university students via a video conferencing system. And others here have attended their local CCs or university’s onsite. I’d just like to know their thoughts on why they believe DE is not a good option or even why they believe that an AP course is superior to actually sitting in a course with university students and learning along side them.
@jrcsmom, we don’t have a large dual enrollment program. But the consensus among the hs students is that the dual classes are easier than AP. My daughter took one, and she enjoyed it; it was a fine course but it wasn’t that difficult–easy compared to AP chem or AP bio, both of which she also took-- and she said most of the students were in it because it was easier than the science APs. (It was a different science than the AP science subjects, we don’t have dual science classes which duplicate those).
Our dual enrollment classes are offered in the hs in coordination with our local cc. This is an open admission cc and the local students who enroll there tend to be those who weren’t strong students in hs. Nothing magic happened when these students were handed their high school diplomas. It’s also a destination for local students who flunked out of their 4 year college. I don’t know many students at the cc, but two I do know know of were in that situation. Most of them are weak to middling students at best, and the cc offerings are geared to them. There’s nothing wrong with the college as far as i know, but their students simply aren’t even close to the level of our better honors students–not one of whom chose attend this cc after graduation, in my first kid’s graduating class at least. The situation may be different in different communities, but that’s what we have.
I’m sure it depends wildly on the community college as well as the student. A friend’s D did DE while homseschooling, graduated with her AA a week or two before she finished up her HS requirements, and graduated college as a 20 yo, already accepted to a selective MA program, which she just finished at 22. This was at a Texas college I see highly touted here on CC. This girl was anything but a weak student and maybe she just had to put up with the dullards who weren’t even close to her level, but I suspect there was actually a mix of abilities and she worked it out just fine.
@jrcsmom My thought was in response to the OPs specific post - if APs are available, is it better (therefore everyone should be doing it) to instead take the (costly) DE course so it looks better for colleges. In my opinion, no. Now if the HS doesn’t offer the APs said students want to take, and the students think the courses would transfer, then its a good choice.
I wonder, though, if college will ding students from HS that don’t offer APs, but where other students have gone to CC to get their DE. Colleges are not supposed to ding students as not taking the ‘most rigorous courses’ if they have taken the most rigorous course ** at their high school **. If your son had taken the 1 and only AP course at his school, would the colleges still consider that he took the most rigorous courses offered?
At my sons’ school, the same class could be used for AP credit and dual enrollment credit. We paid full price for AP exams and for community college credit. I made a table with their most likely colleges and marked how much credit they would get for each class at each school. I used the transfer equivalency tables and AP credit websites for each university, and estimated their AP scores using the score distributions available from AP Trevor.
For some classes, it wasn’t worth it to pay for dual enrollment because it duplicated the credit that he would likely get from an AP test or if it was transferred to a course that didn’t count toward his degree. For other courses, it was an additional course credit, or it was a hedge against a risky AP test score. For AP Calc BC, we didn’t pay because he was likely to get a high AP test score, but for AP English Literature, he got credit for an additional English Literature course that was used for his distribution requirements.
It was too expensive to pay for dual enrollment if they weren’t going to need it, but useful in some cases or for some universities.
@DRDM37 - not sure what state you are in- but in mine DE/AP cannot be the same class