<p>As a matter of fact, yes, poetgrl, if I go to my knitting group, I don’t use the same words I would if I were at an English lit conference. I would consider it affected to do so. It doesn’t cause me any trauma, but I am aware that some of the people at the table won’t understand me if I use the kind of words that come naturally to mind. I’m sorry if that indicates “dumbing down” to you; to me, it is politeness. I don’t know that they won’t understand the words, but there are a couple of people there who, I know, did not go to college and have already shown a little discomfort if the conversation gets too rarified. It’s the same as not talking about money: I don’t think it’s kind if someone goes on and on about her brand new Mercedes and how much it cost, without considering that she might be talking to someone who has just lost her job. It’s not polite to make people feel uncomfortable, for whatever reason.</p>
<p>And I think your selfrighteousness is just as unattractive as you seem to think my concern for others’ feelings.</p>
<p>I just yesterday wrote “simplify language” on a document that a co-worker is drafting. I wouldn’t like to call it dumbing down, but language has to fit the audience.</p>
<p>A group of people in the administration at my university had drafted “communications standards” for anything that was posted on the web. (I work at a large public research university.) The draft language instructed the faculty that the Flesh-Kincaid reading level of anything we posted should not exceed Grade 11. No joke! It had to be pointed out that university actually starts at Grade 13.</p>
<p>I’m going to assume that the guy at my local “parks and rec” tennis court who was an elite competitive player 10 years ago “dumbs down” his game when he’s playing with a neighbor. That’s just manners and common sense. I don’t think that makes him an elitist SOB; that makes him a nice guy who likes to play for the love of the sport and to keep in shape- but realizes that he’s not likely to find a player at his “level” on a free court which requires a $10 park pass every year in order to compete.</p>
<p>If you view the value of a college only as what happens in the classroom, and what you can turn that into as it relates to future employment, than a smart well-motivated student can and will achieve anywhere.</p>
<p>If you view the value of a college more holistically than the equation changes. I did not go to an Ivy, but went to a small college consistently ranked in the top 40 on most rankings. You live with your classmates 24/7 for four years. The atmosphere and the student body do make a difference. I am not saying that State U is a bad atmoshpere, only that it is different.</p>
<p>Value is personal. If you value this experience, than it is worth it. I have lifelong friends from college. If I went to State U, I would most likely still have lifelong friends from college. Most of my closest friends I see on a daily basis didn’t go to college, but they are all successful. Some went to State U and some went to more elite colleges. I don’t evaluate their worth or their friendship base on where they went to college, but on who they are.</p>
<p>I am amazed at some of the attitudes on both sides of this argument. Yes, some posts show an elitist attitude, but you find this in all walks of life. Try golfing for the first time and listen to the complaints about slow play, even though everyone learned at some point. Having a daughter compete internationally in figure skating because she loves it, but not recognizing that some students love learning.</p>
<p>Much of the university web site is intended to market the university to people considering applying for admission to the university. Many such people are high school students who have just completed (surprise!) grade 11 in high school.</p>
<p>Now, it would be odd if the requirement were applied to web pages intended for students in advanced level courses, or faculty and students working on research projects.</p>
<p>I would speak to the guy who fixes my car the same way I would speak to my editor at a literary journal. Perhaps this is why the guy who fixes my car and I sometimes have coffee together. I would speak to my personal trainer the same way I speak to my collegues or anybody else, for that matter, which is probably why she told me she was getting her MBA and I got her an interview with my husband in finance.</p>
<p>I don’t feel the need to tell my daughter’s soccer coach anything at all, but when I did speak to him, we spoke of Shakespeare as easily as we spoke of the film “goal.”</p>
<p>Maybe that’s just because my high school drop out dad was one of the smarter people I ever met. </p>
<p>And the Dr of chemistry from Poland who painted the outside of my last house was rather brilliant, too.</p>
<p>MS Word will automatically check the Flesch-Kincaid level during spell-check if you chose that option. First rule of consulting: target messages to your audience. And when I worked for big 4 consulting the guideline was to keep it to a 12 - for all audiences.</p>
<p>I think it’s a matter of knowing your audience. My MIL’s companion, a Mexican fisherman with a 6th grade education, is a true intellectual. A voracious reader, he’s as at home discussing Wittgenstein or Proust as he is talking about the proper way to grill sea bass. I do think he’s the exception, not the norm.</p>
<p>As to the original question, I once took a year off from my highly selective college for personal reasons and enrolled in the local college close to home. I found that the level of teaching among the professors I had was high, but that the standards for student work were lower. I had to do far less work to receive the same grade. I once turned a B paper from my former school in to one of my new profs. (yeah, we’ll put my little ethical lapse aside for the moment) and received an A with all sorts of accolades about how I should consider grad school in this field.</p>
<p>The thing I really missed at the local school was stimulating conversation outside the classroom. Whereas at my former school I often found myself in extended group debates about politics, religion and philosophy, the environment at the local school didn’t seem to foster that kind of exchange simply for the joy of stretching oneself intellectually. I did feel as if I was seen as a bit of a snob and it was a relief to return to the more selective school.</p>
<p>The exchanges I described happened quite casually, often at 5 AM at Denny’s after a beer bash, in the smoke-filled room of my Young Republican friend and political nemesis, or on the bus back from a lacrosse game. They helped me to stretch myself and challenged my opinions and my preconceived notions about the world.</p>
<p>Even the truly brilliant can usually manage to communicate perfectly well with the variety of people whom they encounter in daily life. Doing so may or may not require any modification of language. This is not a problem; at most it’s a minor inconvenience in some scenarios, and affects every one with any expertise. For example, when I’m at the auto shop, the mechanic will need to dumb down for me the explanation of what’s wrong with my car.</p>
<p>But what we are discussing here is not the same as short, daily interactions. It’s more akin to asking that mechanic to put up with a new co-worker who can barely change a tire. We are talking about selecting the optimum place to spend 4 years of your life LEARNING. That is why you’re there–intellectual growth. As already explained by others using various analogies, an academically gifted student preferring to attend an elite school is no different than a young running prodigy wanting to train with star coach Alberto Salazar and his pro. athletes rather the local running club. Since learning is primary goal of spending 36 months away from home, it makes sense to match your intellectual level and academic starting point with the majority of students at the school. If you took multivariable calculus way back in 9th grade like some kids we know, it will be more practical to attend a school like MIT, Caltech, or Harvard where similar students go to study math at high levels, rather than an ordinary state school where most kids never took any calculus in high school at all. In our district, the standard math track ends with pre-calc in 12 grade., so the average student is going to be 4-6 years behind the type of kid who can study math at Harvard, and probably 2-3 years behind the average, non-math major at H. Sure, there will be kids at that flagship coming in with more math than that, like engineering students and That’s all we’re saying.</p>
<p>IIRC, most newspapers and magazines (not journals) are written at a 5th grade reading level. Might be 8th grade, but I think its 5th. </p>
<p>I don’t think about my vocabulary when I speak. Just never occurs to me. Only time is the rare occasion that I might have to testify in court. I am reminded to “keep it simple”. But I digress. One day I was talking to some customer service rep on the phone, and as we resolved whatever the issue was, I said something like “so is everything copacetic?” There was at first total silence, then she asked me to define it, and then excitedly exclaimed that she’d learned a new word. She seemed genuinely pleased. We never know who is on the other end of the phone, or who we are talking to. </p>
<p>I will repeat again. I am a firm believer in “fit”. There is a lot to be said for “finding your people”, and if one has the luxury of being able to surround themselves with a higher density (I like that word choice- I might have used frequency but I prefer density, and I again digress), rather than lower density of like-minded braniac, nerd, artsy-fartsy, or whatever fills in that blank people, than thats absolutely fine. But to me thats a world apart from picking a school based largely on status or name recognition. They may both exist, which is fine, but if not, I’d pick fit over name.</p>
<p>I have a kid who interviewed at NASA (his dream). He attended Case Western and is now at Ohio State in Nuclear Eng. Does this “count” ? He is following a dream and not attend MIT to get to this point. He had almost 50 % Merit Aid. My 2 cents. When my D graduates from Harvard in Plant Biology I will get back to you. No aid at Harvard.</p>
<p>Wow. Are these threads cut-throat competitive or more in the cooperative, group project (and won’t sabotage yours) vein? Or do they wax and wane between thse two poles. There are clearly a lot of smart people here, people very sensitive about being being smart, and people very sensitive about their views and/or how others respond to them. </p>
<p>Anyway, sometimes I wonder how many disagreements are really disagreements, or rather reflections of reluctance to reach common ground. Why do so many threads eventually blow up instead of concluding in a more agreeable, consensus that might involve some compromise?</p>
<p>In regard to a couple of topics here today, I can say that I rarely feel any animosity towards HYPSM (and the next 5-10 “top” schools). I do NOT assume those kids, or some of you who attended them, had to “cheat” or rig the system in your favor to get in. I PRESUME these kids are very special, and I know that with most of them there is a qualitiative difference. Of course that doesn’t mean I think they can just “mail it in” either. I think most of thsoe kids still have to work hard, and study, and have some desire to excel and certainly is not antithetical to wanting the very best schools. I have seen some things misinterpreted but in truth I have not seen a lot of derision towards those schools. When I feel competitive, it is generally with those that either are or think they are marginally more talented than me or my kids or marginally less talented. In terms of the kids in our area that get into Harvard or Yale or MIT, etc, I am thrilled for them. I generally know they are extraordinary and I know they are not taking a spot from one of my kids.</p>
<p>As for the speaking up or speaking down to people issue I wonder if some of you are really talking about the same things. There is a difference between being patronzing and taking your audience into consideration. I have a dear friend who went to Harvard (and who is one the most brilliant people I know who had read and understood some things at 19 or 20 that I stil wouldn’t understand at 50+), but when I see him I have to remind him half the time that I have no idea what he is talking about. He makes references without thinking twice, as though we all have those references in our intellectual banks. I love him, but he would do much better if he had better skill at taking his audience into account. IMHO it’s another type of intelligence…the capacity to read situations and adapt effectively in the way that one communicates.</p>
<p>Finalchild
Can You give an example of something that came up in normal conversation with your Harvard pal that you found you could never possibly fathom? How did it come up in conversation? You seem pretty smart. You are a PhD after all.</p>
:p</p>
</p>