Is going to a prestigious university worth the premium?

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

To me, there is a real difference between a class of 1,600 in which all 1,600 are at a certain level, and a class of 16,000 in which the top 1,600 are similar to our first set of 1,600. It creates a different atmosphere socially. It means that finding your “tribe” may be harder. </p>

<p>That is if you define your “tribe” purely in terms of academic achievement, and that is the only type of “tribe” you can relate to. But is it necessarily true that students who are very strong academically are always that way, perhaps even to the extreme of not being able to talk to a plumber?

</p>

<p>Academic aptitude and being very interested in one’s studies (whatever they were) was / is part of how I personally defined my tribe when I was in college, FWIW. Of course, that has nothing to do with being able to talk to the proverbial plumber, so that’s a complete non sequitur. Being highly academic has nothing to do with being able to handle everyday interactions and being pleasant to and learning from others. </p>

<p>I can’t speak for everybody, but for myself, that was vitally important, to go from a fairly typical suburban high school in which only the nerds cared about their studies, to an environment where mostly everybody cared about their studies. I know <em>I</em> would have flamed out and become highly depressed if I’d had to go to college in an atmosphere where most kids were just moderately interested in their studies, moderately academically inclined, and you would have to search for the tribe of those-who-cared-about-academics. Maybe that’s a failing of mine, as clearly there are other bright students who for whatever reason wind up attending such colleges and they do just fine. But I know myself well enough to know that I needed an atmosphere “thick” with other bright students.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

I can’t speak for all highly selective colleges, but I can say this is not the atmosphere at Yale, at least in the humanities. Perhaps that is more the case in STEM majors, but I really can’t say. It isn’t generally experienced as a cutthroat environment at all. I also don’t think there is really all that much pomposity, either. What there is, though, is intensity–people are intense about their studies, and (perhaps even more so) about their extracurriculars. I think most people find this an energizing setting. It’s my impression, based on what I hear from my kids’ friends at other schools, that this is pretty typical of highly selective schools

</p>

<p>Based on my experiences, and my kids’ experiences at highly selective schools, I would concur with Hunt. No one’s booby-trapping anyone else’s science experiment. People may be competitive with themselves, but there’s no issue of people not helping one another study for tests and so forth.</p>

[marysidney]

<p>Truthseeker has made up his or her mind; she or he wants validation for his or her choice. Ok. Most of us do. If something is important to you, it’s important to you, and if it’s not, it’s not: I can’t convince someone to be interested in sixteenth century religious developments if it doesn’t matter to them, and I recognize that. I don’t try to change his mind, because I can see his eyes glazing over. But that doesn’t make my interest less interesting to me, and it doesn’t mean that the subject is not worth study, it just means that a certain audience doesn’t find it fascinating (and I’ll admit right now that the audience that does find it fascinating is small). But my interest in that field was begun by a particular course, with a particular professor, and it has held through three decades of work. Had I not taken that course, at that school, with that professor, my choices would have been different–not necessarily better, but different. I chose my college with very little guidance, yet I would argue it was the right college for me; had I attended a different college, I would probably feel the same way. I would probably be a different person, but I would be convinced that my college had been right for me. The great thing about that is that people don’t know, usually, what implications their choices had for their futures (what Terry Pratchett calls the trousers of time). One has a vested interest, after all, in deciding that one’s choices were sound. The good news is, college is a good thing. Education is a good thing. Whether one attends MIT or the University of Alabama, the big thing is that one got an education. </p>

<p>But–and this is important–people who have spent their first 18 years with people who are not as smart as they are will find the experience of spending four years with people who are just as smart, and possibly smarter, an amazingly freeing feeling. Not having to watch one’s vocabulary, not having to defend one’s reading material, finding people with similar interests, finding a place where being smart is a good thing, is a phenomenal experience (I grew up in a small town in Pennsylvania). You don’t have to go to Harvard to find these people, there are plenty of good schools that are not called Harvard, but they aren’t called Shippensburg State College, either. It’s really good to find your fit, and that’s where the idea that all schools are alike falls apart. You need to find a community that fosters you, that welcomes you, that fits you, that allows you to grow to your fullest potential. This doesn’t show up in ROI reports. Nobody is saying, truthseeker, that you have to send your daughter to a Northeastern liberal arts fancy pants school to get a good education; what I am saying is that schools are, in fact, different, with different missions, different student bodies, different goals, and it is important to choose the school that matches your child’s needs (and not your own pre-conceived ideas of what education is for). Yes, you’re paying for it, and yes, value for money is important, but it is not the only factor in choosing a college, and you seem really hostile to the idea that there is more to a college education than price. Your daughter may find whatever school she ends up with entirely suitable to her needs, and hooray for her. But there are students who will not find Generic School suitable for them, and they are not wrong, or merely elitist, or misguided, or fabulously wealthy: they are looking for a school that will be really a good fit for them, one that will, possibly, help them to develop and change and grow intellectually. I do hope that, if your daughter is one of those students, you won’t dismiss her desires for a school that fits her as frivolous, because it’s not frivolous to want some of the most important years of your life to be spent in as enriching an atmosphere as you can find.</p>

[truthseeker2]

<p>

I can’t speak for everybody, but for myself, that was vitally important, to go from a fairly typical suburban high school in which only the nerds cared about their studies, to an environment where mostly everybody cared about their studies. I know <em>I</em> would have flamed out and become highly depressed if I’d had to go to college in an atmosphere where most kids were just moderately interested in their studies, moderately academically inclined, and you would have to search for the tribe of those-who-cared-about-academics.

</p>

<p>Talk about non-sequiturs. Just because it is a State School or less than an elite school does not mean the kids are only “moderately” academically inclined or interested in their studies. That’s the problem with so many of you “elite” crowd. You assume all sorts of things without any evidence to support your assumptions, which are essentially as follows:</p>

<p>Only students at elite institutions are intelligent.
Only students at elite institutions are interested in their studies.
Only students at elite institutions are motivate
Only students at elite institutions are academically inclined.
The typical High School Student has no interests in academics unless they are “nerds”.</p>

<p>The nonsense I read on these threads boggles the mind. Here is my conclusion. Lots of the “elite” on sites such as this need to learn some critical thinking skills.</p>

<p>

One thing that I’ve never understood is the fact that so many people say it’s not worth spending the $ for an undergraduate degree. I think that degree is the most important one.

</p>

<p>I would be one of the guilty here, except I would not say its not worth spending $ for an undergraduate degree. I say it is not worth spending $250 K for an undergraduate degree when your child can get a perfectly fine education for 80K or less.</p>

<p>And by the way, nowhere have I said all colleges are the same. My argument has been about value. I do not believe that an elite education at 250K is good value compared to a good quality non-elite school far less expensive. But all things being equal, including tuition, heck yea. . . I’d send my kid to an elite school in a heartbeat (if she wanted to go, which she doesn’t).</p>

[Vikingprime]

<p>[College</a> Education Value Rankings - PayScale 2013 College ROI Report](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2013]College”>College Education Value Rankings - PayScale 2013 College ROI Report)</p>

[GSharpM7]

<p>Truthseeker2 – I completely understand your perspective and to a degree was in your shoes at one time. I will say that reality has proven that my perspective needed some adjusting. I totally understand your cost concerns and we had the same ones which is why P was off the list until we met with FA who has always been nothing but helpful. Only you and your D know what is best for her. I am just relating my experience, FWIW.</p>

<p>

@truthseeker2

I am pretty sure there is pomposity and snobbery to some degree at Elite colleges. That is just the nature of the beast, because the elite after all, like to think of themselves as elite.

I understand your concerns about elitism / snobbery. Trust me, we live in rural VA and our necks are much redder than many (most?) people at D’s school where she decidedly now has friends who are 1%ers (we know because we recognize them or their names, not because they introduce themselves as “Hi, I’m John the Elitist. You’re that humble beginnings family, aren’t you?” ;)). We have talked about it and her general take on it is that at school nobody really cares. Everyone is just the “kid” down the hall trying their best to do their work. At school there is relative parity because of FA. There aren’t special “elite” housing options, meal plans, walkways, etc. Although I’m sure that there is some elitism to be found, her experience is that is not a problem. The few friends that I have met seem very down to earth and could be found on any campus anywhere.</p>

<p>

@truthseeker2

But that is not what really concerns me as much as the hyper competition that I perceive as existing in those types of environments. Since I live in a world of hyper-competitiveness, and since I know how much damage that can do to one’s Psyche, that is another good reason that I think rationalizes my daughter’s choosing a less than elite school.

Again, our experience has been hyper-supportiveness. Her network of friends supports each other. When home on break once, she was working on a paper and asked if I would stay up and be “miserable” with her because at school she would have a bunch of friends who would do homework and be miserable with her. She would say that her biggest competitor is herself (always has been). Maybe I misinterpreted your definition of “hyper-competitiveness?” I will say that D’s friends are “driven,” for want of a better word, but not to the detriment of others.</p>

[finalchild]

<p>Acknowledging something (as opposed to the dreaded ‘admitting’), can often lead to some fresh ideas or perhaps a bit of increased insight. Defending back and forth, which usually amounts to protecting and insulating the choices that your family made, doesn’t seem to really advance anything.</p>

<p>Both of my kids applied to UMass-Amherst to lock in an early admit. Both were accepted early into the Honors College. Now few are going to confuse UMass with Cal, Michigan, UVA, UNC, etc, but still, the school has a lot to offer and is far from unknown. Plenty of options, strong faculty, nice college town, and especially for my younger, one brand-new honors housing with enhanced honors academic and social programming. Not to mention of course that one can take courses at Amherst, Smith, Mt Holyoke and Hampshire. Most would consider the area one of the more premier academic hotbeds in the US.</p>

<p>For both kids, after all the acceptances were in, UMass-A (Honors) was dead last in their pecking orders. And to be honest, for me too. Notwithstanding the good price comparatively, and notwithstanding brief moments of wondering why we weren’t considering this choice more strongly. As much as I might think this was a mistake, the thoughts were fleeting. You have to start narrowing the list somehow and this was the school that was the easiest to drop. Poof. Gone. No angst.</p>

<p>Now when trying to understand why this school was not more of a contender in our house, the themes trending in this thread (certainly with at least grains of ringing true) ultimately don’t stand up. In other words, I am absolutely positive that UMass-A has more than enough resources and quality (plus the consortium) for my kids to be just as successful (broadly defined or whatever that means) as they would be at any of the other choices (inclusive of rejection choices had they gotten in). And on an anecdotal level, I know some very bright kids who are thriving there. So that doesn’t work. Now, the “density” of high-end students argument. They would be in honors, living with other honors kids (and don’t have to randomly accumulate similarly bright friends and classmates), and so even though the average SATs of this group of kids might be lower, even significantly lower than some more “prestigious” options, I’m not convinced that would be a difference that would make a difference. It’s a bright group of kids with options for independent study and if really needing a stretch there’s Amherst College right down the street. And then, of course, there’s the bargain aspect…not absolutely needed but still helpful and potentially the financially smartest option by a decent amount.</p>

<p>So how in the heck does it end up dead last on our lists?</p>

<p>It’s not only about ROI. It’s not only about access to and density of high quality students. It’s not only about optimizing chances for grad school or whatever the next step after graduation is. The perceived value of and attraction to “prestige” goes beyond all of that. I think the references to finding optimal “dating” matches were flirting closer to some of the core truth. It’s not just high quality students that are desired. It’s a certain kind of quality student (allowing that what this means will differ for different types of kids). But many don’t want to just hang out with nerd-geniuses so pure smartness isn’t necessarily what it’s all about.</p>

<p>This is where the “brand” comes in. Folks have mentioned Bryn Mawr a lot. Hardly anybody who is familiar with the name thinks “#26.” It’s one of those schools that fits the “Bryn Mawr is Bryn Mawr” test. It is iconic. It’s the stuff of movies. It’s no accident that Matt Weiner chose Bryn Mawr for Betty in MadMen. So, yeah, rankings often track with “prestige” but not always in a completely parallel way. So a Reed can withstand it’s relatively low ranking because of the very reverberations of its name. </p>

<p>Anyway, I think there is something here that is important that is more in the ballpark of identity and placing oneself with the kind of associations that one desires. “A Lehigh man…a Holy Cross man…a Harvard man…a Smith woman…” There is some definition and contours by virtue of the association. There is some coloring and character…tradition…rituals unique to that institution." Many of us don’t want our kids to just be nuevo riche. Having a 10 million dollar home isn’t success if everyone thinks it’s gross and you and your lifestyle have no affiliation value. Wanting them to have the “best of everything” isn’t just being challenged and being with other really smart kids. There’s refinement, style, sophistication, “taste,”…being a patron of the arts, etc, etc, etc. It’s the MORE that many of us want for our kids, and for me part of the answer here is understanding better exactly what that “more” is all about.</p>

<p>And before all assume that is all Ivy Leagueish…well, to some extent of course it is (referring to ‘Ivy League’ in a much broader sense with many more than just the eight formal Ivies under the umbrella)…but, as this may be where some regional differences come in…I think the same dynamics apply for some in being an Ohio State Buckeye, where a kid is going to the the 4th generation son or daughter at OSU and the family has held season tickets at the old horseshoe for more than 50 years…or the same with Univ of Kentucky…or Michigan or whoever…as long as the prongs of identity, tradition, pride, appropriate perceived range dating mates, etc are satisfied.</p>

<p>Again, I’m not advocating for anything in particular in the above. I’m just trying to look at why the pull is so, so strong.</p>

[truthseeker2]

<p>This college education value study is worthless. Everything depends on the individual, from their motivation to their interests to their major to their intent to seek higher education. You can’t look at the return in the manner this study is trying to portray because we are all individuals.</p>

[riprorin]

<p>I’m a value shopper and couldn’t care a lick about the brand.</p>

<p>Thankfully, my kids are pursuing degrees where employers aren’t brand conscious so brand didn’t enter the equation.</p>

<p>Maybe I’m naive, but at the end of the day I want to believe that merit is the most important thing.</p>

<p>Sent from my SCH-R760 using CC</p>

[riprorin]

<p>I find calling your group of friends a “tribe” disturbing.</p>

<p>Sent from my SCH-R760 using CC</p>

[truthseeker2]

<p>I believe this has been posted before, but this author apparently has hit the nail on the head given many of the postings on this thread:</p>

<p>[The</a> American Scholar: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - William Deresiewicz](<a href=“The American Scholar: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - <a href='https://theamericanscholar.org/author/william-deresiewicz/'>William Deresiewicz</a>”>The American Scholar: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - <a href='https://theamericanscholar.org/author/william-deresiewicz/'>William Deresiewicz</a>)</p>

<p>

But it isn’t just a matter of class. My education taught me to believe that people who didn’t go to an Ivy League or equivalent school weren’t worth talking to, regardless of their class. I was given the unmistakable message that such people were beneath me. We were “the best and the brightest,” as these places love to say, and everyone else was, well, something else: less good, less bright. I learned to give that little nod of understanding, that slightly sympathetic “Oh,” when people told me they went to a less prestigious college. (If I’d gone to Harvard, I would have learned to say “in Boston” when I was asked where I went to school—the Cambridge version of noblesse oblige.) I never learned that there are smart people who don’t go to elite colleges, often precisely for reasons of class. I never learned that there are smart people who don’t go to college at all.

</p>

[SomeOldGuy]

<p>As long as your D agrees with your analysis, shouldn’t you WANT the rest of us to believe the opposite? After all, you’ll only continue to have this arbitrage opportunity and be smarter than the rest of us if we don’t change our behavior. </p>

<p>Or to quote the one of my favorite philosophers, “Be vewy quiet. I’m hunting rabbits.”</p>

[mensa160]

<p>I feel there is very little difference among the Ivies, and any of these is an acceptable choice, and well worth the $$$.</p>

[marysidney]

<p>Oh, please. You’ve never been to one of these colleges you dismiss as merely elitist, but of course you know they can’t possibly be any good, it’s all just branding and classism and prejudice. How do you know? Because you’ve found sources that agree with you. That there are people who don’t agree with you doesn’t matter, because they’re obviously elitist idiots, because they don’t agree with you.</p>

[SomeOldGuy]

<p><a href=“If%20I’d%20gone%20to%20Harvard,%20I%20would%20have%20learned%20to%20say%20“in%20Boston”%20when%20I%20was%20asked%20where%20I%20went%20to%20school—the%20Cambridge%20version%20of%20noblesse%20oblige.”>quote</a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, it is the Cambridge way to deflect uncomfortable conversations with people who automatically assume that everyone who went to Harvard is an *******.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

As long as your D agrees with your analysis, shouldn’t you WANT the rest of us to believe the opposite? After all, you’ll only continue to have this arbitrage opportunity and be smarter than the rest of us if we don’t change our behavior. </p>

<p>Or to quote the one of my favorite philosophers, “Be vewy quiet. I’m hunting rabbits.”

</p>

<p>True. </p>

<p>And by a similar token, why should anyone who has experienced the rich Mother Lode of intellectual vigor that is the elite university care what a couple recalcitrant posters think? But such posters are here and they are legion. And by here I mean posting prolifically in this thread and probably a hundred like it, extolling the virtues of the Elite U. Over and over and over and over again. These pro-elite school posters far outnumber the naysayers.</p>

<p>But I suspect you know the answer to the question in your post. It’s a message board. People come here to argue their point of view, with a pretty much zero chance of changing anyone’s mind… </p>

<p>

The American Scholar: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - William Deresiewicz

My goodness! A post-April Deresiewicz sighting!</p>

[Swimkidsdad]

<p>In this thread Hunt said:</p>

<p>“Sure, there will be some smart people at the state school–some of them just as smart as the smartest people at top schools. But on average, the students there will not be as smart as those at top schools. This has an impact in the classroom, in extracurricular activities, in the formation of friend groups, and even in dating.”</p>

<p>Hunt, unless you are socially inept you can easily find students that are just as smart as you to socialize with at most excellent universities. It is not necessary to pay a premium to attend a prestigious university just so you can date someone smart or have smart friends. It’s really not that difficult.</p>

[SomeOldGuy]

<p>

And by a similar token, why should anyone who has experienced the rich Mother Lode of intellectual vigor that is the elite university care what a couple recalcitrant posters think?

</p>

<p>Equally true, and addressed at post #107.</p>

<p>Oh, and for the record, I attended a state non-flagship that most people think is in a different region of the country than it actually is.</p>

[dietz199]

<p>

people come here to argue their point of view, with a pretty much zero chance of changing anyone’s mind…

</p>

<p>Kind of like dealing with cranky, hungry and overstimulated 2 year olds. Maybe we all just need a hand full of goldfish crackers and a nap.</p>

[truthseeker2]

<p>Yep, and I think he also pegged my daughter, who was the only child in her school selected for the gifted program as early as kindergarten:</p>

<p>

[quote]
Being an intellectual begins with thinking your way outside of your assumptions and the system that enforces them. But students who get into elite schools are precisely the ones who have best learned to work within the system, so it’s almost impossible for them to see outside it, to see that it’s even there. Long before they got to college, they turned themselves into world-class hoop-jumpers and teacher-pleasers, getting A’s in every class no matter how boring they found the teacher or how pointless the subject, racking up eight or 10 extracurricular activities no matter what else they wanted to do with their time. Paradoxically, the situation may be better at second-tier schools and, in particular, again, at liberal arts colleges than at the most prestigious universities. Some students end up at second-tier schools because they’re exactly like students at Harvard or Yale, only less gifted or driven. But others end up there because they have a more independent spirit. They didn’t get straight A’s because they couldn’t be bothered to give everything in every class. They concentrated on the ones that meant the most to them or on a single strong extracurricular passion or on projects that had nothing to do with school or even with looking good on a college application. Maybe they just sat in their room, reading a lot and writing in their journal. These are the kinds of kids who are likely, once they get to college, to be more interested in the human spirit than in school spirit, and to think about leaving college bearing questions, not resum</p>