The above was in response to @PetulaClark. @fallenchemist is spot on about Tulane.
D’s college requires 50 hours a semester of community service for major scholarship students, which she is. Service is also discussed in depth in orientation, and the entire freshman class goes out and does some form of service on one orientation day. Many of the students at her school are on some form of FA, and many work. The community service is left entirely up to them-at a church (and many are involved in church), a local school, organization or even right there at school. For example, kids can log hours helping with student-run events, homecoming clean up, early orientation, high school visit days, acting as tour guides, and so on. They never even leave the campus to get those hours. They all manage to fulfill their commitment. I’m glad it’s a requirement.
D has been volunteering since middle school in some capacity. Not only has it led to opportunities in her HS, but got her a paid internship last summer, and just got her interviews for two her first year in college. The volunteering she’s done has lead directly to her choice of career and has helped make numerous contacts in that field.
‘service days’ at universities have become quite common and one of the major purposes of these is to improve university-town relations. About 10 years ago… Nashville’s mayor referred to Vanderbilt as the ‘800 lb gorilla on West End’ That was a wakeup call for the VU admin to think about its responsibility in its own community. Service in the community plays a role (intended or not) of marketing and inspiring support in the hometown… so now when the city council debates paths for new public transit-- the feelings toward VU are much more positive because of the civic engagement of its students-and I’m sure the needs of VUs parking and traffic will be a consideration.
I think my objection to the OP was the sense that schools that have this kind of service commitment as part of their requirements are taking advantage of students or subverting the educational process. In reality, I think it’s more apt to be a win-win-win situation with students, university, and community ALL benefiting from the experience. As long as the programs are flexible and the time commitment isn’t onerous, I would see that as an opportunity rather than an obstacle.
@EllieMom Your post 43 is succinct and spot on, with its emphasis on students, university, and community. The kind of response that can cause someone to think, refine or even change his position.
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I agree, @PetulaClark. If a university’s students live on campus and the requirements aren’t too onerous (and especially if they get college credit) I can see a lot of good that can come out if it. However, many colleges aren’t set up like that and primarily serve a portion of the population that has to jump over many obstacles others might not face just to get to graduation in 5-6 years. Like mine. (Which, of course, leads to more expense and lost income, but that’s another story.)
For the record, I’m on the board of directors of a nonprofit and spend much of my time volunteering when I’m not at work.
As others have noted, students working hand in hand with the local community can really improve town gown relations.
@“Erin’s Dad”
My kid went to a Jesuit college. Community service was required. It was actually woven into the dorms…every dorm had a theme, and community service was required of all residents. And yes, all freshmen were required to reside in the dorms.
In addition, the school had spring break, and summer service trips that the school sponsored.
If you don’t want to do community service…only apply to colleges that don’t have this requirement.
@PetraMC @thumper1 Thanks for your perspectives.
One thing I have learned from this thread to read the fine print, about what colleges expect from their students. I have been to at least 20 info sessions and do not remember anything said about expectations of community work. (That doesn’t mean nothing was said, as I may forget something I’ve heard 5 minutes later.) And my D would not object to volunteer work, as will have the time in college. I found the original post to be provocative and useful.
To get back to fallenchemist, at my kids’ school, it was called something like community partnering. Having that opportunity to continue involvement was a major factor in D1’s college choices (but completely unrelated to her major.) We visited the office for this and they handed us a thick binder of opportunities. We were excited. Not all was direct work with the needy, some was working, eg, with the local school department assessment/planning, local govt or a local program. In a sense, these could serve as self-chosen internships. I know my kid’s vol work led to her major post-grad grant, which had service experience as a requirement. And to another offer.
I think we need to face that encouraging kids to look around themselves, past the classes and the rah-rah, is only going to continue. As for whether it’s mandatory, it simply isn’t, at all colleges. Many aren’t even organized to encourage it, much less facilitate.
In the example of a college where the majority of kids already face hurdles of their own and grad rates are in the tank, they are the needy community. Would you like it if kids from a different local college were there, supporting them?
“In the example of a college where the majority of kids already face hurdles of their own and grad rates are in the tank, they are the needy community. Would you like it if kids from a different local college were there, supporting them?”
Supporting them in what way? Our average incoming SAT is fairly high. Most of our student’s troubles are monetary, and most live at home, commute to school, and work part time. So if you are working and have to take 12 instead of 15 credits each semester, there’s a whole extra year to get to 120 credits at the end.
You bring up an excellent point, @lookingforward and I think it is relevant to the core topic. Being at a school where it is well known that service learning aka other titles is important to the fabric of the zeitgeist builds on itself and can indeed affect one deeply as a person. Spelling that out, Tulane as I said made service learning a requirement post-Katrina. This started to attract a certain kind of student to Tulane. This caused the school to continue to invest in the program, emphasize it more in admissions, which caused it to become more known for it. This led to Tulane being on various lists of Top Schools for Service, that kind of thing, which made it more known, which created further interest in students who might not have known about Tulane but have service as one of their core values.
So while Tulane is not made up 100% or even particularly close to that of students who want to devote their actual career path to service oriented jobs, they all share at least some “DNA” along those lines, and there certainly is a slice of the student body that either came in wanting to make their careers ones of service, or came to that along the way. Tulane ranks very high in the number of students joining the Peace Corps, Americorps, and other similar organizations after graduation. And I suspect it would rank higher if done as a percentage, not just quantity. The departmental and alumni publications are filled with stories of those students going onto successful careers in all areas, not just traditionally service oriented ones. But not surprisingly most continue to give of themselves more than the average American even after settling into a more traditional life.
To me, it is this kind of full, well rounded life of the mind and spirit for which our universities should be preparing their students. Yes, I understand it cannot possibly apply to everyone, that this might be more of a “luxury”, although I think that is a terrible word there, of those attending the very-to-somewhat upper level schools and/or those that are financially more solvent. There are always particular situations, and trotting them out to knock down the whole idea of it accomplishes nothing. As said several times, those people in those situations will of course have to choose other schools, which remain the vast majority at this juncture in time. But for thousands and thousands of students, the opportunity to engage and be among others that value that same kind of engagement is a very positive thing, IMO.
@fallenchemist, thank you for acknowledging that being able to perform significant volunteer work might be more tenable to students at more elite school, students from more financially solvent families. Could this not give such students yet another leg up in the post-college life of opportunities, vocational and otherwise? Opportunities not as available to students at the college @PetraMC works at?
This is not to say that community service is not meaningful for students and colleges, and most of all, the community. My middle D, a HS senior, wants to join the Peace Corps after college. She’d be able to afford it, as she’ll have no college debt. Would that Peace Corps stint, or any volunteer work while in college, help her with getting into grad school or her first domestic professional job?
I am a volunteer, with adult lifetime learning. My HS Ds are glad to volunteer. I would hope that employers and grad schools considering hires or students will consider that some do not have the luxury of time for hours and hours of volunteering.
@fallenchemist I didn’t really say anything about the purposes of college (employability, getting ready for life). Did you mean to address the OP?
The question is whether it’s a good idea for colleges in general to have service requirements. (Or I guess that’s what I’ve been thinking about, even though the OP was closer to saying that no college should ever have a service requirement.) Of course it’s fine for specific colleges to have major focuses on service, just like it’s fine for specific colleges to be strictly religious or teach only the great books. My concern is that a more average college trying to implement a service requirement would just end up with a few thousand mildly resentful students who go out and do things that aren’t helpful. I guess I’m wondering why service should be a graduation requirement rather than something voluntary and yet strongly supported by the school’s culture.
Perhaps, and to that extent life is not fair, ever. Because what is the alternative then? In order to somewhat make “more level” a playing field that will remain unlevel anyway, it is better to leave those students devoid of any sense of what it is participate in improving the human condition in a way few could experience in high school? To take away a chance to apply the major you are studying at the most human level? To let those that came in very entitled and ignorant of these kinds of situations (not intellectually ignorant, but again ivory tower knowledge is often not true knowledge when it comes to these situations) remain that way just so another group doesn’t feel disadvantaged in some way? To subtract all those millions of hours of help to the most needy in order to achieve… what? Something more important than all that aid and service that is being brought to bear? That strikes me as pertaining to some adage I have heard about babies and bathwater.
Not to get off on a tangent, and I don’t think it is because it strikes at the heart of the objections to these kinds of things so often. But that, to me, is so often the issue with people that want to make sure everyone “feels good” or has the “same opportunities”. So is it better to not give out any A’s because the C students will feel bad about themselves? Because they get C’s due to broken homes and other circumstances the A students are privileged not to suffer from? That’s the logical extension of that kind of thinking. Let’s suppress excellence so that average or less doesn’t feel disadvantaged.
Sorry to get on a soap box, but it just burns me to see the solution being explained as “We don’t want to help anyone improve because some cannot take advantage of our offering”. Under that reasoning, there should be no study abroad either, or club soccer since those that have to work to get through school don’t have the time. Yes, those are voluntary activities, and I emphasize these are too in that one can choose a college that doesn’t require them. But any student that has to work or is otherwise strapped for time and money will be passing up all kinds of opportunities those that are more affluent will not have to. Thus it is and thus it will always be. Let’s not cancel the school play because of it.
Don’t cancel it, but don’t make it a graduation requirement either.
I may indeed have “misremembered” what you said vs. the OP. In which case I apologize, because I hate that myself. But to your point, I think it is largely hypothetical. I would agree that if a significant portion of the student body is not just inconvenienced by some kind of significant requirement for hours outside of class (beyond normal homework of course) but actually potentially harmed by it, then the school would be tone deaf to the make up of their student body. It clearly is not the kind of thing for every school, and maybe not even most schools. That is why I think it isn’t really an issue in that sense, there are so many schools that do NOT require it. And for issues like this, schools are not allowed to impose new graduation requirements on existing students. You have a contract with that school when you are accepted when it comes to issues such as this. They can only impose such new requirements on new applicants and beyond. Schools have lost court cases trying to do otherwise.
Certain schools decide to define their mission as being beyond ivory tower academics. That means it becomes required, just like a “Great Books” school has a very inelastic curriculum. This is obviously not nearly that restrictive, but it does have to be a requirement if that school is going to build itself upon that aspect (among others) and become known for having that instilled in their graduates. The hope would be that an employer or grad/professional school would see that a person graduated from Tulane (or wherever) and immediately know that they were meaningfully exposed to that ethic.
For the nth time, if that doesn’t fit a student, pick one of 3,000 other schools.
How many colleges require it, anyone have a hint? Some may be putting the cart before the horse.
“students at more elite school, students from more financially solvent families” I think you forget the power of religion and ethics in so many people’s lives, how many do good as an expression of that. It happens, even among the less financially solvent. Kids start in high school and many continue, as part of of their values. Just because we may not know they do, doesn’t mean they don’t, even with school and a job.
“Would that Peace Corps stint, or any volunteer work while in college, help her with getting into grad school or her first domestic professional job?” It may. There’s an intense vetting process another parent can talk about. My D1 landed a different program, also well known. And then that did lead to her first pro job (not related to her major or her service, but the responsibilities mattered.) My D2 got specific community experience (not an “internship”) that led to her current work.
Btw, this was treated as work study and roughly the same number of hours/week, which far exceeds the number some of those colleges require for service, to graduate.