<p>Afan, I NEVER said that affirmative action equals more people with browner skin. That was your statement. </p>
<p>I simply quoted the statement derived from the URL noted in post 12. Read over what is said in the URL. Minorities can be a lot of folks such as Asians, hispanics, American Indians etc.</p>
<p>Post #16 is correct. And, about the effect of “affirmative action,” the 40 percent figure for admission of “minority” (here meaning not solely “white”) students is actually pretty close to what would be expected from a pure-play no-consideration-but-merit policy. That’s because by self-selection and long years of preparation, Asian-American students make up a much higher percentage of applicants to top colleges than they make up of the current high school population. And it is they who have the best high school records, as a group average, among current college applicants.</p>
<p>Post #13 makes a very important point. One of the best ways to stand out as an applicant is, perhaps, not to bother with inquiring about what makes one stand out as an applicant.</p>
<p>Actually, he isn’t totally uninterested in sports. I forgot to mention one little thing…
8 years doing Taekwondo, and he recently received a 3rd degree Black Belt. I’m sure if he pursues this hobby, his chances will increase tremendously.</p>
<p>misterwang, for God’s sake and your son’s sake, read post #17.</p>
<p>Taxguy. Sorry if I misinterpreted your statement. Please explain. How does 44% indicate taking affirmative action too far?</p>
<p>I agree that post #17 offers good advice in general. To the concerns of the original poster, the advice of post #17 comes from a parent whose child had success getting into a selective school, so I can’t disagree with it at all.</p>
<p>Afan, This threat is not about affirmative action; thus, I won’t deal with it. I was simply reacting to the url posted above.</p>
<p>No sports - one into Harvard and Columbia - the other into top Liberal Arts Colleges. Neither ever considered doing sports to get into a school. Both did sports early on in high school and decided not to continue. </p>
<p>Both dropped “high demand” instruments at the start of high school to pursue other interests. Never listed instruments on resumes either.</p>
<p>By the way, sports “help” no more than anything else unless you’re a recruited athlete. Students should do what they enjoy - if they’re miserable at something, that will show in their applications anyway. If they love it, they will shine. Adcoms are perceptive people.</p>
<p>I think Mr. Wang might be a ■■■■■, too. I hope so.</p>
<p>Me too, MOWC, me too. Hit a chord too close to home for me. The young man I’ve talked about with perfect ACT/SAT who was rejected from 7/8 Ivies has the same family name.</p>
<p>To answer your question, in my town, the answer is virtually an unequivocal “yes” for HYP and S. I know of only one person in 5 years, including all the vals and sals and 1600/2400 SATs who was admitted to HYPS without being a potential college varsity athlete.</p>
<p>There have been admissions to other Ivies of students with other ECs.</p>
<p>Midwesterner,</p>
<p>You know what? I had Princeton and Yale mixed up on that, and I apologize. Princeton is a few percentage points lower, but compared to the percentage of athletes, both schools’ URM admissions are, I think, at or about almost DOUBLE that of recruited athletes. </p>
<p>Princeton’s URM admissions were 36% and Yale’s 42% for the class of 2008.</p>
<p>Yet recruited athletes comprise only about 15% of a class.</p>
<p>“For the class of 2007, the last class accepted under Hargadon, 218 athletes represented 13.9 percent of the 1570 students accepted. For the class of 2008, the first class admitted under Rapelye, 228 athletes represented 14.0 percent of the 1631 students accepted.” (Source: Daily Princetonian, April 28, 2004)</p>
<p>I was convinced I had read that 42% of URM’s were OFFERED admission at Princeton and only 36% accepted. That must have been in one of my nightmares during the college admissions agony.</p>
<p>But whether it’s Yale’s 42% or Princeton’s 36%, the math still tells me that I would rather be a URM than an athlete if I was seeking admission to one of these schools. A URM wakes up being a URM every day – as does an “ORM”, an acronym that never ceases to amaze me. It is his or her birthright – similar to being a legacy, I guess. </p>
<p>An athlete is not born an athlete, however. He or she can sacrifice 25-30 hours a week in punishing workouts for years (while keeping a close eye on GPA and fulfilling community service requirements) to MAYBE advance to the point in his or her chosen sport to be “recruitable”. Athletes are also subject to the “banding” requirement at Ivy League schools. I know of no such policy regarding URM’s. There are no scholarships offered to recruited athletes, either, whereas I believe URM’s are not denied scholarships outright. I’m not sure how they handle legacies. </p>
<p>I haven’t dug up the data for every Ivy, but I did find this:</p>
<p>“Based on acceptance rates alone, African American students have the best chance of getting into Dartmouth, with legacies right behind them. African Americans were accepted into the Class of 2008 at a rate of 44.6 percent, while legacies had a 35.4 percent acceptance rate. Native Americans and Latinos enjoyed acceptance rates of 34.6 and 29 percent, respectively.”</p>
<p>So if people want to think someone “stole” their spot at one of these schools, it is statistically more likely to have been a URM than an athlete. Of course there are also the legacies to consider.</p>
<p>I just realized that it WASN’T a nightmare – thank you to whomever posted that link! I KNEW I had seen it somewhere, but that page did not come up in the four Google hits I looked at before replying to Midwesterner.</p>
<p>I won’t retract my apology, though, Midwesterner. I’m from the Midwest, too. We all have to stick together.</p>
<p>Dizzymom, you might want to keep in mind that many URM’s are also athletes. Plus, the 44% minority admission figure that Princeton is citing undoubtedly includes Asians, Indians, children of immigrants, and other groups that are traditionally high performing. It’s in Princeton’s interest as far as PR to fudge on the use of the word “minority” somewhat – they want to look like they are very diverse – but in the end the percentages of minority students coming from disadvantaged backgrounds is much lower. </p>
<p>Stats don’t tell the whole story either: there are many fewer blacks in the applicant pool than whites, so a number like 46% admission often reflects the lengths that the college has to go to in order to maintain only the 8% representation they have in the overall student body. Princeton’s entering class will probably still be 63% white or close to that – so if you are going to look at what your chances are at ENDING up at Princeton… well, being white, rich, and coming from the Northeast still counts for a lot. </p>
<p>Finally, I’d like to note that my daughter attends a west coast public high school that doesn’t offer any athletics. We had one kid admitted to several Ivies + Stanford this year, a kid who went to Yale the year before, and another who went to Harvard the year before. Two of the kids were class valedictorians, I think the other was Salutatorian or close to it – so I think class rank is pretty important.</p>
<p>Read “The Game of Life”. The book covers this in great detail.
Recruited athletes have far higher admissions rates to the Ivies than do URM’s. </p>
<p>The Ivies do only need based financial aid. This is true for all students, athletes and non athletes, all ethnicities and races.</p>
<p>Recruited athletes do face banding in football. However, this only applies to people who are being recruited to play football in the first place. If you want to go to an Ivy League college, being a D1 level athlete is the best thing you can do to help your case.</p>
<p>That said, the vast majority of students admitted to the Ivies are not athletes.</p>
<p>Val at our school, also a NMS winner, took a very aggressive courseload. Involved in academic EC’s (Math team, mock trial)…did NOT get accepted at any Ivies. Sal is going to Cornell…he did a sport (only one) but had outstanding commitment to another EC both in and out of school that also was not academic (music). I would guess that in some cases the Ivies are looking for students who do not JUST have academic tunnel vision…in other words, kids who study study study, and do ECs that are study, study study.</p>
<p>Does JV in football (for 9,10,11 and a big may be for varsity in 12) counts as sports in a prep school where many top Varsity football players go to D1 team like Notre dame, Miami, USC etc? Son is not very good at it but loves the football. He has a school radio show where he had interviewed few NFL affliated coaches, and players.</p>
<p>I think we need to define terms here. All minorities are not URMs. I highly doubt that Princeton and Yale are anywhere near those percentages of URMs. That they may have that many minorities is a different issue, and as Calmom says, there’s no reason to suppose these students were picked for any reason beyond academic qualification. </p>
<p>I don’t think it’s necessary to be a member of any specific group or activity to increase one’s “odds”: I think you should be your best you, and let the chips fall where they may.</p>
<p>Princeton has a smaller percentage of African-American students today than it did in 1970, and a much smaller percentage of them receiving need-based aid.</p>