<p>If you look at acceptance rates, you basically have to be a star wherever you’re coming from (except maybe Harvard). Even for a great school like Swarthmore or Columbia, the person who goes to the best grad school is an exception rather than the rule.</p>
<p>Many profs from H teach at state schools. If you are lucky enough to be mentored by a H alum then your chances of admission to grad school rise. I know of several examples of this type of situation…it was an easy path. The students worked hard but the mentoring through research helped a lot. Not all H graduates teach at IVY schools.</p>
<p>That showed me that where you go for undergraduate does affect your chances in grad school. The fact that a big school like Michigan has 1/20th (approx) representation compared to that of harvard u-grad, shows that the undergradaute school does play a role.</p>
<p>The interesting thing is even good state law schools like to admit students form the elite private schools, after taking care of their own students:</p>
<p>Undergraduate schools of law students enrolled in the University of Virginia’s class of 2008 (with 7 or more students in the class):</p>
<p>University of Virginia 46
Duke University 19
Yale University 17
Princeton University 12
Brigham Young University 12
College of William & Mary 10
Harvard University 9
University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill 9
Cornell University 8
Emory University 8
University of Notre Dame 7
Dartmouth University 7
Georgetown University 7
University of California - Los Angeles 7</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.law.virginia.edu/home2002/html/prospectives/class08.htm[/url]”>http://www.law.virginia.edu/home2002/html/prospectives/class08.htm</a></p>
<p>Note: the Virginia numbers are for one class, the Harvard numbers are for the three classes currently attending the law school.</p>
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<p>Well, let’s keep in mind that there is a strong confounding factor here. Let’s face it. The average student quality at the top elite private schools is significantly higher than the average student quality at the public schools. Yes, every public school has its superstars. But even a top public school like Berkeley and Michigan has a long tail end of students who are not that good, relatively speaking. Hence, the fact that you see lots of Harvard undergrads going to top grad schools is partly a function of the fact that Harvard undergrads in general tend to be high quality, and has nothing to do with Harvard specifically. Some of these Harvard students would have been highly successful even if they had gone to no-name undergrad programs, just because they are very hard-working and high quality people.</p>
<p>Let’s not also forget that there is also a strong geographic preference among students. For example, you might say that UVA Law has lots of former UVA undergrads. But part of that has to do with the fact that people who went to UVa for undergrad often times tend to prefer to go back to UVa for grad school simply because they’re already used to the area and nobody likes to move. Couple that with the fact that people who go to UVa for undergrad tend to be Virginia state residents, and if you are a Virginia resident, then UVa Law school is going to be cheap for you, and that’s another reason for you to prefer to go there. </p>
<p>The point is that a lot of the notion of grad-schools “taking care of their own” is nothing of the sort, but rather that those particular undergrads prefer to go back to that school for undergrad. Hence, it’s often times not that the grad-school prefers those undergrads, but that the undergrads prefer the grad-school. I’m sure that lots of Harvard undergrads got into UVa Law but turned it down to go to some other law school. Why? They’re probably not Virginia state residents (at least, not to the same proportion as are UVA undergrads), and they’ve never lived in Charlottesville before, so they have no reason to prefer to matriculate at UVa Law. </p>
<p>The real way to see if there is any preference is to look at admit rates of similar people. For example, is a guy from UVa undergrad and is a Virginia state resident more likely to get admitted into UVa Law than another guy from Harvard with similar stats and who is also a Virginia state resident?</p>
<p>In a similar geographic vein, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to compare the # of Stanford grads at Harvard Law to the # of UC grads; (not to mention the lower UC tail as noted by sakky). </p>
<p>Over half of Stanford’s student body is OOS, with many from the east. It is only logical that they would be inclined to return east for grad school, particularly for job connections. OTOH, the UC’s are comprised of 90% state residents…going to a state grad/law school can be less expensive, and/or provide local connections for jobs. For example, with its strong, local alumni network, an 'SC law or business degree is much more helpful in SoCal than a similar degree from the Ivies.</p>
<p>Law students applying to top schools ususally go to the best school that they can get into, irrespective of location. Also, top law schools seek geographic diversity; therefore, students usually have a slight edge at schools in distant locations. I doubt a lot of UC students would turn down Harvard for UCLA, Berkeley, or any other West Coast school, with the possible exception of Stanford.</p>
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<p>But you said it yourself - when it’s close, they will tend to prefer their own hometown law school. Sure, I agree that few Californians would prefer Berkeley Boalt Law over Harvard Law, but what if it isn’t Harvard Law we’re talking about, but rather something like Duke Law, or Cornell Law, or Northwestern Law or UPenn Law? Strictly speaking these law schools are ranked higher than Boalt is (at least in USNews). But if you are from the Bay Area and had the choice of staying there and paying in-state tuition, or going to one of those other law schools, what would you do? I think many people, probably the majority, would simply choose to go to Boalt.</p>
<p>Basically, a private law school has to be significantly better than your local public law school for you to prefer it.</p>
<p>sakky,</p>
<p>I agree. Based on my own experience, people who get into big name privates, excluding perhaps the top 3 or 5, tend to stay closer to home if they can.</p>
<p>But I only have anecdotal evidence, which is about as useful as a fly in my teeth.</p>
<p>First, the last time I looked, Berkeley was tied with Cornell and Duke for number 11 at US News. Northwestern was number 10. Penn was number 7.</p>
<p>Second, Berkeley has different admissions standards than the other schools you mentioned, since they value GPA more than LSAT scores. Berkeley has a median LSAT of 166, which is pretty low for a top law school, while its GPA median is 3.81, which is pretty high. The other schools you mentioned all place more emphasis on the LSAT and less on the GPA. Because of this fact, MANY STUDENTS DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE BETWEEN BERKELEY AND THE OTHER SCHOOLS YOU MENTIONED.</p>
<p>Third, Berkeley’s class size is only 264 students and many of those students are not from California. As far as I know, Berkeley does not have a set percentage of students that it must take from California.</p>
<p>Personally, if I lived in California and had a choice between Berkeley and Cornell/Duke/Northwestern, I could see choosing Berkeley. I would choose Penn over Berkeley even if I lived in California, unless I knew I wanted to go into IP law.</p>
<p>If I was going to go to law school, I would not choose UCLA, USC or any lower ranked California school over a top 14 law school.</p>
<p>Instate v. OOS at Berkeley Law School was $ 21,531.00 v. $ 33,776.00 for 2004.</p>
<p>quixotic,</p>
<p>You /= everyone else. </p>
<p>And the difference between 15 and 14 is that big? :-/?</p>
<p>It seems pretty clear to me that, as far as law schools go, there is a huge difference between number 14 and number 15. This is the dividing line between “national” law schools and strong “regional” schools. You will generally have greater mobility in your legal career if you attend one of these schools. Also, top employers hire further down into the class at the “national” schools. It’s not that you can’t get a great job from a lesser school, you can; however, you will have to obtain a higher class rank at your school and you will most likely practice in the region where your law school is located.</p>
<p>Okay, the op asked is it possible for a graduate from a state school to go to Harvard, I think the answer to that is yes it is possible. I didn’t realize so many Californians would want to brave a Boston winter for Law School, but thats okay…the real question the Poster needs to ask is where will he get the best education, establish good contacts with noted proffessors and have something to show any decent grad school when he applies. </p>
<p>As for how many get in to a particular school. If I said Mr.B university has only gotten one student in to Harvard Law in each of the past two years. You might think not a good choice for undergraduate. But if I then told you only one person applied to those schools each year and so that was 100% of those who applied…you might go hmmmmm. Statistics are funny things.</p>
<p>quixotic,</p>
<p>How have you defined 14 and up as “national” and 15 as not?</p>
<p>I’m curious here.</p>
<p>“But if I then told you only one person applied to those schools each year and so that was 100% of those who applied…you might go hmmmmm. Statistics are funny things.”</p>
<p>I would tell you that you’re wrong. No one has the statistics to prove it but law admissions percentages are low, am I correct? I see more of the rejections coming from the schools where they are taking 1-2 kids a year from. Are you telling me that only 3 kids out of an entire class from the public flagship school of Rutgers applied to Harvard Law.</p>
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<p>Even if that’s true, so what? The question on the table is what would you do if you were given such a choice. </p>
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<p>It would be interesting to see how many other Californians would make this choice, especially given the lower tuition cost at Berkeley and the fact that many Californians, want to stay in California to practice. If you intend to practice law in San Francisco as many Northern Californians do, then it’s difficult to justify choosing Penn Law over Boalt.</p>
<p>I mean, if I plan on settling in LA or the Bay Area, why would I go to Cornell?</p>
<p>Gotta pass that California bar…</p>
<p>I know one girl who went to my high school (she’s 24 now) went to University of Washington and is now at Harvard Law. Of course she’s smart, but I mean, it can be done.</p>
<p>UCLAri:</p>
<p>Look, I have no current plans to attend law school, but I did look into the matter. If you start reading law school literature, it is full of references to the top-14 schools, which appear to be more “national” and improve one’s chances of getting a good law firm position upon graduation. </p>
<p>Visit any law school message board and you will see many references to the top-14 law schools.</p>
<p>Here are a few references that I quickly found looking around the web:</p>
<p>"There are only 14 top law schools. Thats right. Not 10, not 15, but 14. They are, in descending order of prestige: Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, Chicago, University of Pennsylvania, University of Michigan, University of Virginia, Duke, Northwestern, Cornell, UC Berkeley, and Georgetown. And thats it. Go to any other law school, and your chances of getting a big law firm job will be slim to none. </p>
<p>There are also distinct levels of prestige within the top 14. Yale, Harvard, and Stanford are head and shoulders above the rest. Then Columbia, NYU and maybe Chicago round out the top 6. Attending one of these top top law schools will vastly improve your odds. The guy graduating at the bottom of the class at Harvard will have better career opportunities than the guy graduating at the top of the class at an ordinary law school."
<a href=“http://www.calicocat.com/2004_08_29_archive.html[/url]”>http://www.calicocat.com/2004_08_29_archive.html</a></p>
<p>“So you’d like to… get into a top 14 Law School
A guide by veganvenus, Harvard Law School, Class of 2008, LSAT teacher”</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/VC1F03PMPDF/102-0251938-2692920[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/VC1F03PMPDF/102-0251938-2692920</a></p>
<p>“I’m currently a 1L at a top 14 school and feeling very unhappy. I’m doubtful of whether I want to return,” says a weepy Vault member. Help this poor sucker out! Visit the Law Board and let her know whether she should stick it out or say sayonara."</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.vault.com/static/newsletters/html/2_11493.html[/url]”>http://www.vault.com/static/newsletters/html/2_11493.html</a></p>
<p>Okay, you’ve convinced me.</p>