Is it unethical to do this?

Athletic Recruits
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<p>I agree. I’m a teacher, and I take cheating very seriously. However, I spend a lot of time teaching my students what is and isn’t plagiarism. I’m always amazed at what they think is okay. But then, I’ve been at this for a lot longer than they have, and until I’ve shown them what to do, I excuse their mistakes and allow them to revise their work without penalty. </p>

<p>Just as students get confused about plagiarism rules, I get confused about the rules of recruiting all the time, and I’m an adult. I can totally see how a high schooler–especially without the guidance of a knowledgeable adult–might get himself into this fix. That said, I agree that the best way to extricate himself is to apologize profusely to both coaches, admit his mistake, and hope for the best.</p>

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<p>I don’t know if his parents should have been more involved or not. But this is definitely a lesson the kid has learned, which is a good thing.</p>

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<p>I agree here. This issue is CAN A KID WHO IS TALKING TO THE IVIES DO IT IN A VACUUM??</p>

<p>I doubt it. Parent/s knew.</p>

<p>AND I have met MANY unethical parents who breed unethical kids…until they learn otherwise.</p>

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<p>Hi an update as per my son- the other coach in question called him today and reneged on his offer! Apparently said this kind of thing is generally a warning sign/red flag, he said that he regretted having to rescind his offer after learning he committed to two schools. Apparently he was very upset as this was his first choice but it is what it is. So now he waits for the first coach to get back to him by weeks end after “he has a chance as well to think things through”. I have to say I feel bad for him. He is a decent kid but a little cocky too…I can see him thinking he was pulling a fast one and getting away with it. Unfortunate it backfired and so fast! My son said that he said the coach came down on him pretty hard about “that being just wrong” and that the Div. 3 verbal is an exercise in integrity and honesty. (take notes)</p>

<p>Surely a life lesson, my son is getting one too and i am sharing it because I want to be able to help anyone else who might even be contemplating this. DON’T DO IT. I hope it works out, if it doesn’t he is back to square one and has a scarlet letter (so to speak) in terms of not being honorable. A tough lesson for a 17 year old. He is a also a great athlete so its quite sad that he might be out a spot at least temporarily. Honesty and integrity prevail afterall…</p>

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<p>Classicalmama, this probably doesn’t get said half enough to you - I think you sound like a great career teacher. It probably also doesn’t get said half again as much to you as it should be from the parents of the kids who get caught up in these things.</p>

<p>16 and 17 are the strangest ages. Not only do all sorts of choices become available, but they also come home to roost, and, coincidentally, law has decided that parents are to be equally responsible for everything. My teenager assures me all the time that he’s too smart to do anything stupid. The only problem is, I can’t get the same promise out of any of the other kids I know he runs into at any given time, considering that we don’t chain our son to the radiator and keep him from socializing in the world.</p>

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<p>Sounds like a D3 situation. Many on here could tell horor stories about coaches verbally saying stuff that doesn’t pan out, so it all depends on the exact school/situation, for sure. I was a HS head coach for the last 5 years and played football in the NAIA. This may be a bit off this situation, but I think many kids and parents often want so bad to feel “recruited” talked about in the community and “committed”, especially when peers around them are talking about their options. So many kids get over their skis and have too much pressure from a parent or peers to be something great athletically, when being good is ok. That can lead to inflating situation or not being smart as they want to be valued or pursued like they see on TV - kind of like being asked to the prom by several suitors, but saying yes to all as it is hard to tell someone no - or worse, it is an ego stroker. Ultimately many end up over their heads in a program as a walk on and hate it, when they could have gone to a smaller program and been a real part of the team. I have seen it too many times. In the end, does it really matter to anyone except the kid - PLEASE, pick your school first unless you are on scholarship. Your college life will be so much more fun before you have to hit the real world. Again, I think the ethics come into play based on the protocols of each level of collegiate competition. I also think coaches go through it all the time so the applicants are at a disadvantage on how it “really” works. It is not right to lead on two coaches , yet if you are simply trying to get accepted to the best school available and the coach cannot offer anything other than non-binding verbal support, I see no problem with pursuing options to the fullest. That said, I would recommend that the applicant communicate openly. Have a top choice with a back up choice too. If you are really that good, what is the harm in telling coaches that you are interested in going to that school and are looking at all options. What are my chances at your school, etc. It seems awful early for these two coaches to be on him so soon as the ED deadline is a bit away. These coaches can go through as many as 2,000 kids (per a d3 washu interview I saw)to get 30 kids that can be admitted, and oh yeah, play the sport at a college level. If a kid limits to one option and thinks it is all a go, they better have a backup plan. This case may be where the kid is a bragger and the whole idea of being sought after is too much to handle. This is where parents need to insert professional manners and help them learn to communicate in the adult world. I have coached D1 players and D3 players. The recruiting process is much different for both and the rules are vastly different. Bottom line, character and demonstrated leadership is what most coaches seemed very interested in at the D3 level during our recruiting process. The reason why D1 programs look for talent first is that is strictly a revenue game for the coaches. So, this kid may have hurt himself if it is truly a reflection of his character. D3 need kids that will be passionate and pay to go to school - less selfish and more playing for the love of the game in a way. And if the kids don’t have the right perspectives going in, how are they going to learn to compete with upper classmen and be a humble part of the team as a freshman? It is all relative - attitude and character do matter for so many reasons. Both from your recruiting coaches and the applicants. Sorry for the ramblin"! Just like to see young people happy and in the best position for success.</p>

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<p>OnePorkChop - you’re not rambling. You’re sharing and, frankly - Preach it. I understood every word of what you just typed.</p>

<p>You’re a valuable resource. I hope to be the same later. As much as I share, there’s so much I can’t share until later. It’s gold when there’s a parent who has been through it who comes back and cares enough, for no good reason, really, other than to help the rest of us.</p>

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<p>Thanks - I just think people need to be informed and know that each case is different. I have seen some stuff go sideways in my little sphere of experience and felt a lot better about the process when my own kid just did it last year.</p>

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<p>I appreciate the insight too. Yes the bottom line is that on both ends, it appears honesty and integrity from both the coach and the athlete are paramount and yes this is a D3 situation (top D3 schools). He told each coach he was taking the spot offered to him, so I guess from a coach’s perspective as he is finishing up his team, he thinks he is all set and then finds out xxx who was going to be in such a such spot is in fact not committing to him after all but hears he is also committing to xyz school where he happens to know the fellow coach. I can see from a coach’s perspective why he would have second thoughts about having this kid on the team. Hope the other coach has a little more mercy.</p>

<p>Good lesson to all.</p>

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<p>This is a great thread.
OnePorkchop - thanks for that valuable perspective.</p>

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<p>Thanks KW for the additional information. I would imagine the coach would have some mercy if the kid could really explain that he was keeping options open, might be a tough sell or not the truth in this case. Again, I would just make sure the head coach is in the process heavy as that is the person who has the reputation on the line. Also, coaches turnover and coaches try to pick off ivy rejected kids to fill rosters, at least in the NESCAC. So, if you feel ok about the situation and hit the ED button, you should be fine. The bummer is that you only get to do it once, yet a coach is like a doctor seeing 50 people a day. Each concerned and wanting special attention. The doctor may not even realize that body language or silence or a hundred other quest get interpreted right and wrong. In the end, we are usually ok, but given how competitive getting into college seems to be, we are all on edge. Just be reralisitic and trust yourselves and you will be fine - but I only did it once as a parent! Just best to have a contingency plan and hopefully explain to the #2 coach that you are very interested if not admitted to X. No different than applying to schools without athletics as a factor. The coaches may go on to the next kid but at least manage it the best you can. Being “offered” a spot in D3 should be replaced by something like “coach approved applicant” or "pending athlete " or something? I wish you all luck, we ship off real soon so this will be you next year!</p>

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<p>One other thought re OVs, LL etc…</p>

<p>when a kid accepts an OV- it is a limited slot – and it means the kid has real interest in the school</p>

<p>Often kids just like the attention/being wined-dined-flown it…and forget that if they aren’t interested in the school-- They are taking an OV slot from another kid.</p>

<p>Same with commits… When a kid accepts/commits…another student wont get that offer. It is very self focused. So committing to two schools meant that there was a kid who wouldn’t get an offer at either place, as the coach thought they had the LL committed. </p>

<p>I realize it’s summer and the kids haven’t taken OVs yet etc…however we have had kids here on CC (and parents) who had kids taken OVs without real interest in the school.</p>

<p>I know of a guy who took OVs to H and P although he had committed elsewhere (naval academy) and it was a done deal. He took OVs and even considered taking a LL from H…unethical in my book.</p>

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<p>Fogfog, I totally get where you are coming from, but I think that some kids might not put being ethical at the top of their list of priorities whilst they believe that the Coaches they are dealing with cannot be trusted.</p>

<p>From reading posts on here, it seems clear that some Coaches, as has been put " are there to recruit the best athlete", which is fair enough. However, being chummy with a recruit for months and then just dropping them cold without the courtesy of an explanation doesn’t garner any trust in the process.</p>

<p>Quite a few posters have said they have ended up at places that were not originally on their radar, and they advise people going through recruiting to keep a very open mind. If one is to follow this advice (which although is not good advice for DS, but might be excellent advice for others), it would be foolhardy not to go on an OV because the athlete at that point is not interested in the school making the offer.</p>

<p>If the Coaches adopt an attitude of it’s a ‘dog eat dog world’, I fear “unethical” behaviour on the part of recruits will abound.</p>

<p>I have always wondered if perhaps one day, people would post their honest experiences with Coaches who had treated them less than honourably, and also vice versa. If so, recruits might be able to proceed with trust and honesty with those deserving of these, as only if these exist, will a recruit say to a Coach. " Thank you, but you are no. 6/o on my list, and I am fairly confident something will work out with my no 1-3 s etc. " </p>

<p>I have said 6/o, as since 5 OVs are allowed under the rules it cannot be said to be unethical to accept an IV from up to your true no. 5. If you accept an IV, the most that can be read into your acceptance, is that the school is one of your T5, no more, no less.</p>

<p>As we live in the UK, this subject is largely academic for us, but I can see why some would visit schools that they hoped not to have to attend. Having said, I completely agree with you that in the scenario of the athlete going to the Naval Academy for sure, their behaviour was more a reflection on their poor ethics, as opposed to any instinct to ‘self preserve’.</p>

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<p>Not sure what your experiences have been but over here, with the exception of two coaches I think most were quite honest about where my son stood with them. As most say coaches are in the business to not only recruit the best athlete for their team but to preserve their reputation, integrity and that of the schools. They are not there to take away a spot or go back on their word and its said (at least with lacrosse) it happens less than 5% of the time (either the coach or student backing down) and its normally for a significant reason like a big decline in academic performance, some kind of behavioral thing,etc…in fact his college advisor at school said in her 15 years of doing this only once did it happen with a recruit.</p>

<p>So I think nearly all coaches when they do offer a spot are sincere and want that kid on their team and in 9 times out of 10 it works out that way.</p>

<p>As a followup to the original post about my sons friend, coach #1 ended up keeping his offer on the table but not without a very big “talking to” (scolding) to the kid, which certainly was deserved. He made it clear that that kind of behavior will not be tolerated a second time. It seems as my son tells it, he did not realize how wrong it was to do that, apparently his parents were not that involved in his recruiting process and maybe had they been this could have been avoided. In any case, alls well that ends well.</p>

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<p>Kwalker,
I am glad to hear this. In general I do not think that 17 year old kids are evil and deceiving. I would have hated it if that kid lost this lifetime opportunity completely due to one case of bad 17 year judgment.</p>

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<p>Glad to hear this as well. Thanks for the update!</p>