<p>In my area I see lots of web jobs that pay $35K to $40K. They
underutilize the skills of a CS degree by quite a bit but those jobs
might be good enough for a CS grad until they find something that uses
a bigger percentage of what they learned.</p>
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<p>Nothing wrong with being overqualified for a job. Especially if you’re
into grabbing contract gigs. But then you may have to get involved on
the sales side too.</p>
<p>The thing is that you have a range of expertise and a demonstrated
ability to learn on the fly with an engineering degree. That expertise
is useful in areas related to and sometimes outside your specific area.</p>
<p>The “web jobs” are for people with the appropriate “web” skills – whether it is HTML, PHP/Perl/ASP coding, Javascript, Flash, server administration… whatever the employer is looking for. A CS major may or may not have gotten those skills as part of their training – if they have been writing code in. It’s a mistake to assume that someone trained in a specialized area necessarily received the training in a different, but less difficult, specialty. An employer might typically ask to see samples of the work the person has done in the past, as well – so the person with the portfolio an track record is at an advantage. </p>
<p>And employers often shy away from hiring “overqualified” people for permanent positions because they want someone who will stick around and work for whatever low pay they are offering. </p>
<p>I just bid out a job for a project and hired someone a couple of days ago – I hired the guy with the lowest bid, not the people with the best qualifications, because I decided that the complexity & needs of the particular project were fairly simply. If I had felt the project called for more expertise, then I would have gone for the applicants with better qualifications – but that’s the mindset that employers have. </p>
<p>I’d also note that, unfortunately, if someone’s qualifications seem disproportionately high for the particular job, there’s a tendency to wonder what’s wrong with the applicant. (That is… to ask, why the person can’t get or hold a job that fits their degree). Maybe with the tight job market employers will make a few allowances in that area – but the point is, a higher level, more specialized degree is not necessarily going to get a person hired over someone with less education and more pertinent experience.</p>
<p>“And employers often shy away from hiring “overqualified” people for permanent positions because they want someone who will stick around and work for whatever low pay they are offering.”</p>
<p>So true. And it’s why so many older (45+) folks are having so much trouble in this market. And if you’re over 55, well…Walmart is hiring. Based on everything I’m seeing, the recession is having the biggest impact on those with little or no experience and too MUCH experience. I know a LOT of people who have been thrown out of work in the last few years and those who are in their 30s and early 40s seem to be landing just fine. In any case, it’s a bad time to be graduating, and those who are clever, flexible, and persistent will make out better (and also those with strong family connections…who said life was fair?).</p>
<p>CS degrees range in content from the practical to the theoretical but
even the most theoretical programs contain a lot of practical courses.
I would expect a modern CS program to include enough in programming
skills so that a graduate could pick up those skills on their own or
that graduates would have picked up these skills on their own or in
their internships or other jobs.</p>
<p>Many years ago, I had an upcoming contract and was informed on Friday
that I would be working on a COBOL project on Monday and that I had
the weekend to get up to speed on the language. I had programmed in
other languages so I just went to a university bookstore and picked up
a language reference guide and went over it on the weekend and was
good to go on Monday. Now I wasn’t an expert on the language but I had
expertise in applications, the general structure of programs, the
operating system, etc. and that was good enough to hit the ground
running.</p>
<p>Programmers have it better these days. Back then, computers and
software weren’t affordable so that you couldn’t learn this stuff on
your own without university or commercial resources. Today, computers
are cheap and powerful, and software is mostly free. If you want to
learn something on your own, it only takes a little initiative.</p>
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<p>Nothing wrong with temporary and contract work.</p>
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<p>It’s a good way for a young person to learn about the business world.</p>
<p>Many grads want a job in the business world with an employer that
takes care of benefits, payroll, an office, phone, computer, etc. I
think that learning how to run your own business provides a lot of
personal benefits that may be attractive to traditional employers too.</p>
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<p>I don’t think that people wonder about that today. They may worry
that the person won’t stay if and when the economy recovers.</p>
<p>I have had successive trouble (meaning it took longer to get the next job) as I have gotten older/more senior. Due to corporate moves and sales I switched jobs in 2001, 2003 and 2005-6. In 2006 I truly was wondering if I would get a job (senior in-house lawyer). Fortunately, I did and it’s the best of my career. If something happened now, I have no real hope of another job. The market is very bad for older/senior folks in my line of work.</p>
<p>I’ve been in my current jobs since the mid-1980s.</p>
<p>I did some hobby stuff about seven years ago and became quite an expert in it to the point where I was offered a fulltime job with a great company and great benefits and tremendous flexibility in work schedule but I turned it down because I already had a better job. I think that it would be hard finding that next job at my age but not impossible. It might mean moving into contracting or another line of business altogether. But it is interesting to note that there are lots of open source projects out there that are looking for people and that becoming an expert on something is not that hard if you already have a lot of similar experience.</p>
<p>There are less jobs here in NYC. I know a number of large firms that have hiring freezes. I also know a lot of experienced people who are underemployed. When that situation exists, then there are fewer entry level jobs. I’m not looking at 2010 grads who are not employed. I expect that. Many take off the summer, need time to mull over what to do, travel, etc. Where I see problems is with those kids who have graduated between 2001-2009. I know many of them, they come from families and schools that usually mean good employment possibilities and many of them are under and un employed. The other indicator is that there are so many high school and college kids who wanted jobs that are not working. I’m talking about working in an ice cream shop, as a counselor at the rec center, and other summer type positions. </p>
<p>Another phenomenon that I have noticed is that a lot of resort towns like Ocean City are using out of country workers for the summer. It used to be that kids would flock to these vacation towns, make some money, and enjoy the summer there. It’s not happening. My son looked into going there for the summer since commute there (long commute but still,) and pay for couch privileges. He could get work as a life guard, but none of his friends could find the waiter, hotel, store clerk positions. All filled through employment agencies contracting with out of country workers. All eager to come to the US for the work experience and the money. Don’t know if they all make it back at the end of the summer.</p>
<p>That the unemployment numbers are what they are says a lot about the job scene. And of course, those who are the least experienced and trying to break into a job market during such times are going to have a harder time. And of course, those kids who have a specialty are going to have a leg up. They have the resume for jobs in that specialty that most people do not have, and they can also be in the general job market too. They can be working at Best Buy as a clerk until something in their field comes around. Stores like that prefer to hire people with some tech experience because they are more versatile in being able to work in different department. Most jobs are not set on any particualr college major anyways.</p>
<p>When son graduated from our large state school, the number of pages of kid in the grad program who were philosophy, political science and psych majors was more than the rest of the majors. You are not going to stand out with that on your resume. If you have had computer, engineering skills, know advanced math, have worked in the sciences, there are more opportunities open. Several science majors I know are working at some labs as glorified test tube washer, but they did get the jobs over the English majors even though it really doesn’t matter at those jobs. Old classmate of ours who is a bigwhig at a pharmaceutical company, was fussing about his daugher who is a pysch major. They do hire interns and entry level employees , favoring those with lab type experience and majors.</p>
<p>A friend’s son who graduated from UC Santa Barbara in mechanical engineering could not find relevant work for almost 2 years. Now he is underemployed as an engineering assistant in semi-conductor industry at $30K a year. But at least he is gaining experience.</p>
I figured out in my early 40’s that I was “over the hill” as far as any sort of law firm job. The firms want young people they can work to death – I had years of experience, a good reputation established on my own, and times were good, but sending out resumes was a black hole. That’s part of what prompted my career shift.</p>
<p>I took up web design in the mid-90’s and there’s always been plenty of work. I freelance, but for awhile I was looking for a paid position and posted a resume on line to see what would happen, and was deluged with calls. That was a few years back – so I’m not talking about today’s economy – but my point is that no one asked or cared about my age. I was surprised over time to learn how many of us old folks there are – its a career that fits well with our sedentary lifestyles and no one ever sees what we look like, just the work product. </p>
<p>When I hire for web design or coding projects, I don’t even ask for credentials – I find everyone I need for whatever I want just through the online forums I participate in. That’s another networking skill, though – the professionals are already online on email listservs – when they want someone, they put out a message describing the project and asking for a recommendation – so someone looking for a web/computer job needs to get on those lists.</p>
<p>For young people, there are some opportunities that require some heavy research and relocation. Some folks we know with engineer sons from VA Tech took high paying jobs for a couple of years in one of the Arab countries. With that experience, they found other jobs here in the US. A third son can’t find anything because he won’t move from NYC area, and right now there isn’t much here for engineers, it seems. That is problem my Manhattan minded brother has had for many years. He is convinced that NYC is the center of the world and he has to find a job here. He refuses to look for anything that is not reachable by subway in Manhattan. It has limited his options even though, yes , there are more opportunities, in most cases in a large city, and NYC is truly the Big Apple.</p>
<p>I 've known a number of families who have had the spouses separate in living quarters because of job situations. My BIL has an apt in one city where he stays while working, and flies home when he can to his family. He could not find a job that paid what was needed to keep their house in his area. We moved here to the NYC area because of the job opportunites for H. It was not something I wanted.</p>
<p>I can’t speak for philosophy or psych majors. My kids are poli sci majors and have jobs, with benefits, that match their major + career goals. D’s in NY. My d. in fact did not apply for any jobs out of NYC, even though she would have been better off looking in DC – but she wasn’t willing to look elsewhere until she had at least given a good shot at finding a NY area job. Since she was hired on the day she graduated, she never got to the phase of needing to widen the search. </p>
<p>There is a lot of work for politically-focused young people, and it is largely a young people’s world, also with a lot of opportunities for volunteer work, internships, and networking – so its easy to break into in terms of gaining experience and making connections. The “connections” made can end up being people in very influential positions (depending on electoral outcomes and which side you were on) – plus a culture that is more aligned along political viewpoint and credibility than family connections. </p>
<p>The pay isn’t great - no one is in it for the money – but my kids both have jobs with excellent benefits. </p>
<p>The main point is that there are a lot of jobs in nonprofits and political agencies and advocacy groups for young people. The major isn’t really important, but people interested in that type of work tend to be poli-sci majors or major in related fields, such as history. </p>
<p>I can’t know how many applicants there are for each job opening, but there is no shortage of listings and openings for new or recent college grads. Lots of advertised positions. </p>
<p>I think it is an entirely different culture in terms of hiring practices than people are talking about with reference to the technical degrees. </p>
<p>I thinK that in non-technical fields, employers don’t really expect that the person will have gained work-related skills from their education. They look to the degree as an indication of “smart” – but the jobs rely heavily on interpersonal and communication skills – the type of things gained with real-world work experience, not particularly from the schooling. </p>
<p>I also saw a lot of jobs were foreign language proficiency was highly valued – so I think for the social science majors, the language courses can be valuable whether or not the student majors in a foreign language. (Didn’t help my d. any – in hindsight she probably studied the wrong language in terms of her career goals).</p>
<p>being a poli sci major, from a highly ranked school, with a very marketable personality and networking skills, is a pretty good thing. Probably as good as it gets in humanities/soft social sciences. I suspect each trait you vary from that - an anthro major instead of a poli sci major, say - a lesser school - a less marketable personality - a less entrepreneurial approach to the job market - the harder it gets.</p>
<p>There are folks out there who majored in softer fields than poli sci, at 3rd and 4th tier schools, and who dont have the most marketable personalities or the best job searching skills (or parents with the experience in the professional job market to guide them). I suspect most of them would have been well advised to find something more conventionally marketable.</p>
<p>Everyone is different. Pursuing a field you hate is not a good path, generally speaking. Some liberal arts majors do very, very well. But I think the kinds of things they do well in are ones where personality counts for more than in many technical fields. So as in so much, “know thyself” is good advice, but not always easy advice for 18 YO’s.</p>
<p>“They look to the degree as an indication of “smart” – but the jobs rely heavily on interpersonal and communication skills --”</p>
<p>yes, and the kinds of jobs that will be disasters for many kids with NVLD, ADHD, social anxiety, or who are highly gifted and excessively nerdy. </p>
<p>I know you are trying to fight off the idiots who say “get a technical degree or be unemployed” but I think you are leaning a bit to far in the other direction.</p>
<p>Your kids went to good schools. Did they not know anyone whose personality was not a good fit for jobs requiring intensive interpersonal skills? Or do the schools in question just do such a good job these days of selecting out such kids in the admissions process?</p>
<p>Niece just got a job offer (Penn State civil engineering grad in May) from the firm she worked for a couple of summers ago and has been working for as a non-permanent employee this summer. Job is outside Phila and the offer is not great money, but she is accepting it, of course. Salary and benefits. She did well at Penn State (after a slightly rocky start) and has hit dead end after dead end in her job search (which was limited to Phila area, by the way).</p>
<p>I’m sorry. I think this is a very, very serious recession. Maybe the type of recession that starts with a D. We are relocating to New Jersey and there is very clearly a huge over supply of very expensive houses on the market there. We could easily qualify for a ridiculous house. We are going to rent. A deflationary market is too scary.</p>
<p>Re post #195: My son graduated from a Cal State campus with a B+ average. </p>
<p>My kids got jobs based #1 on work (or internship) experience. My d’s college and academic achievements were no doubt a big help, but the point is that anyone applying for jobs needs to focus on their strengths-- and the kids who happen to attend less prestigious schools do need to pay more attention to work experience. </p>
<p>The point is that students with “softer” majors don’t necessarily get jobs directly related to their major. Their major is not a LIMIT on the type of work experience they could get. </p>
<p>I take issue with the whole concept of needing a “marketable” degree because it devalues education and does not accurately reflect the employment situation in the real world. Anthropology majors are not restricted to working as anthropologists, and employers don’t really focus all that much on particular majors outside of jobs with specific technical or licensing requirements. </p>
<p>It seems to me that there is an “agenda” on this thread - its intended to be a thread bemoaning the hard times for graduating seniors. So basically any report of college grads with jobs who haven’t majored in so-called “marketable” fields is dismissed as some sort of exception to the rule, because of course the vast majority of recent college grads must be unemployed and living in their parent’s basements. </p>
<p>But they aren’t. Times are tough and it is harder to get jobs now than it was a few years ago… but the flip side of a 10% unemployment rate is 90% employment. College grads – of any kind – have a tremendous leg up over any unskilled workers without degrees. The stats support that. </p>
<p>The work and rate of pay may not be ideal – but I think that there are some myths being perpetrated on CC that can lead young people down the wrong path, in terms of choice of major or strategies they use to find work.</p>
<p>And that leads me to wonder how many recent grads there may be who don’t have jobs because they don’t have the vaguest idea on how to go about finding work, and who are being fed disempowering messages such as the idea that their school isn’t good enough or their degree isn’t “marketable”.</p>
<p>Thanks for the article, Toneranger. I see a lot of what the article is relating. It does scare me. A lot of NYC neighborhoods that were gentrifying can tip the other way if crime rises to an unacceptable level. When you have unemployed young adults hanging around, there is bound to be trouble. They will get their money some way.</p>