<p>In fact, depending on the department, doing undergrad at MIT will actually make it harder to get into MIT grad as the senior faculty in those departments have mathmom’s view that students shouldn’t spend all of their higher-ed years in the same department/university environment unless there’s an exceedingly compelling reason to do so. </p>
<p>Heard this from several MIT folks…including a few Profs who were advisers to friends in various MIT grad departments (Mostly natural and engineering sciences). However, this depends on department so I’d await answers from those who know more details. </p>
<p>Key phrase being “once they receive tenure”. </p>
<p>Considering how competitive even getting a tenure track job is nowadays, much less receiving tenure after several years, it’s far from a sure thing even with an elite top PhD in hand and LORs from movers and shakers in one’s field. One friend who recently got her PhD from a Top 5 program and advised by a notable academic in her field has been adjuncting for 2 years while continuing to research/publish in hopes of landing that elusive tenure-track position. There’s just too many fresh/recent PhD graduate applicants and not enough new open tenure track positions for most of them. </p>
<p>While the situation isn’t as bad in STEM fields, the trend towards moving towards more adjuncts and less full-time faculty is also affecting them. Also, in some fields, the most cutting edge and interesting research actually takes place in private industry due to funding and university politics. </p>
<p>A key factor in why some STEM PhD graduate folks I’ve known…including a relative never considered academia or left it even after gaining a tenure-track/tenured faculty position. </p>
<p>However, doing research in private industry has its own organizational politics issues…along with the fact you’re unlikely to have as much leeway in what you research and how you go about doing it because of considerations for the private company’s bottom-line. </p>
That really depends on where you are. Professors at many med schools are expected to get their salaries from grants. It has gotten much, much more difficult to get grants.</p>
<p>OP - It’s refreshing to read about teens thinking ahead. But I agree in this case you don’t need to think that far ahead. Do you first few years of undergrad CS before deciding. You may find, as some students do, that it is not your cup of tea. Or you will like it and figure out which areas interest you the most. Good luck </p>
<p>Salander, there is no such thing as a job market for PhD’s. There is a job market for PhD neuroscientists which is different from the job market for PhD botanists which is different from the job market for PhD statisticians.</p>
<p>Even a dumb old humanities major like me can read the job postings and articles at the Chronicle of Higher Education and realize that someone with a PhD in Theoretical Physics is not going to be qualified for the 12 available jobs as an Assistant Professor of Biology in North America.</p>
<p>You exaggerate a bit. I have a PhD in a social science and went through the job market right after the recession, and I have a full time academic job. I got a postdoc and the year after a tenure track position. Each of these years, I applied to over 100 jobs (granted, there are hundreds of applicants for each). There is a job market for PhDs from good programs, in social sciences, engineering, etc. Not in the Humanities, though. </p>
<p>All my friends with PhDs in different fields (ranging from Psychology to Math) found jobs (postdoc and the year or 2 after a tenure track position). Those in law school, another story, and they are in serious debt.</p>
<p>There is a job market for JDs from “good programs,” too, and the jobs people get pay enough to retire their (admittedly) serious debt. You can’t generalize so much. Princeton economics PhDs are getting good academic jobs (and good non-academic jobs if they want them); University of North Texas sociology PhDs not so much. Similarly, Harvard law students may borrow a lot to go to law school, but they can easily make enough during law school to pay for their last year, and most of them get jobs when they graduate that pay enough to retire the debt within 3-4 years. That’s not so true at 5th-tier law schools, though.</p>
<p>So many good posts. A STEM PhD is NOT a ticket to a job- I know too many people with them who have had problems finding employment. </p>
<p>Far too soon to think about grad school. You don’t know what you will end up majoring in even if you have already been accepted at your dream school. I know a man who has a U Chicago undergrad degree in math followed by an MIT PhD and a European fellowship who only has a temporary teaching job. </p>
<p>My young gifted son majored in math and finished a comp sci major for getting a job when he did not get into an elite math grad program (a brutal field to enter- so much worldwide competition). He had all of the math related theory but was weak in programming. He had one job and was recruited for another a couple of years later. We parents hope he will get at least a masters someday but so far (only 24) he’s being intellectually stimulated by his coworkers and the job. Who knows what will appeal to you just a few short years from now.</p>
<p>There are so many variables in your future at this point to lock yourself into a post college plan. Have a plan for a major (or two) at your college. Once you are there you will learn so much about directions you can take. You may even discover other academic loves and pursue one of them instead.</p>
<p>“STEM” is not uniform with respect to job prospects, at the PhD level or otherwise. A new PhD in computer science might not have too much trouble finding a job, if s/he is open to industry jobs as well as academic ones. A new PhD in a field with a weak non-academic job market may have a much tougher time. See <a href=“Education: The PhD factory | Nature”>Latest science news, discoveries and analysis; .</p>
<p>Remember that even for academic jobs, the numbers indicate that competition is fierce for tenure track positions at PhD-granting research universities. Each faculty member at a PhD-granting research universities will mentor far more PhD students to PhD completion than needed to replace him/her when s/he retires, so most of those who do go into academic jobs will end up at other schools (undergraduate or master’s universities, LACs, community colleges, adjuncting, etc.).</p>
<p>^This. I agree that salander’s picture is a little too rosy, although I do certainly agree that if you have an academic career as your goal you should definitely attend a top program (I would honestly say top 30, and top 20 if it’s a humanities or more impacted social science field). In addition to each professor mentoring more students than are needed to replace him, universities are cutting tenure-track slots, not contracting them. 70% of all classes are taught by contingent professors and when tt professors retire they are often replaced by adjuncts. Go hang out on the Chronicle of Higher Education forums and check out the Job-Seeking Experiences and Interview Process forums. Even some STEM PhDs are struggling, and sometimes spend as many as 5-7 years postdoc’ing before finding jobs.</p>
<p>Of course SOME people get jobs, even in a recession, but that anecdotal evidence in and of itself doesn’t mean the academic market is not bad. There are dozens, perhaps hundreds of articles on this right now written by academics from all levels.</p>
<p>But there are definitely some fields with better academic markets - there are actually a shortage of business (especially accounting and finance) and nursing professors right now. In fact, many top-tier research universities have open, standing job ads for nursing professors right now, which is unheard of in other academic fields. Engineering and economics are also pretty good. And of course there are some PhDs that have a choice of competing in the academic market OR in industry - computer science could potentially be one of those if you do applied research that tech firms would be interested in.</p>
<p>I have a Ph.D. in math and teach at a regional university. To the OP: If you are still in high school, start thinking about grad school or MBA or any other postgrad plans after you spend a couple of years in college. There are high school kids who are already doing research and entering the Intel contests - unless you are in that track, best bet is to wait till college to get a better idea. In college, look for internships and REU opportunities. REU is Research Experience for Undergrads - these are held at various universities in the summer and vary in their selectivity. It is almost a necessity to do an REU in college if you’re planning on attending a top grad school. Also, there are opportunities to do research as an undergrad while in your college. </p>
<p>As a high school student, focus now on the following:
When you look at colleges, look for ones that stress these opportunities for undergrad research. Having such undergrad experience will give you a MUCH better idea about research and whether you want to pursue it at a PhD level. I am assuming you have the grades, rigorous high school curriculum, and SAT/ACT scores at a competitive level to attend a strong flagship or a reasonably competitive private. In my experience, students from middle of the road college and universities have a harder time getting to grad school unless they have a “hook” - URM, female , firest-generation etc. </p>
<p>Most likely not. Especially in small departments, they usually don’t want students from their undergrad, because they want people to see how things are done differently in different schools. This is not always done, some people can do undergrad and grad at the same school, but it is usually recommended that you don’t. </p>
<p>A son called me this week to report two close friends from his undergraduate days just got tenure track jobs in humanities fields. Both were interviewing for the first time after completing their PhDs. Of course, hundreds of applicants didn’t get those jobs. These were students who knew in high school they would be going on to graduate school and they did everything possible to maximize their chances of success. Blossom is correct that most students change their majors and their minds. I am now seeing what happens with some of the ones who don’t. </p>
<p>Hooray! Hooray!</p>
<p>Several science kids I know are leaving academics for business or combining post-docs with part-time consulting positions. They are all very nervous. They had counted on more opportunities and stability. </p>
<p>The MBA kids seem to be doing the worst in finding steady work, even when they have degrees from the right schools.</p>
<p>So far, no one has fallen back on Plan B of Law School. That is a lot different than what happened with my generation. </p>
<p>As far as I can tell, these tenure track humanities kids may turn out to be the most successful professionally in the short run. Who would have guessed?</p>
<p>On the other hand, they would have all gone to graduate school for the sheer joy of the experience. Everyone told them there were no jobs and they certainly had Plan Bs in mind.</p>
<p>alh, I am glad to hear that. My son graduates from Duke this spring and will enter a humanities Ph.D. program in the fall. He has two fully, funded offers at great schools and is waiting for other decisions. The job market scares me but this is his passion and has been since high school. Your post gives me hope that he is doing the right thing.</p>
<p>There are always the success stories, and yes, there are many who get jobs with humanities/social sciences degrees and PHDs. If that is what a student wants to study, that’s the passion, then I’m all for doing it. Like the lottery, “you gotta play to win”. I also don’t discourage those who want to go to law school. But, anyone contemplating these things should fully understand what things are like in terms of job opportunities and pay probabilities in these venues. If things don’t work out, there should be an inkling of that possibility and an eye to some other paths one can take to make a living. </p>
<p>My very dear friend is a talented artist as is her sister. Her father encouraged both of them to study what they loved and they had wonderful years in taking their passions as far as they could. One is in an art related field, the other isn’t, but they don’t regret those years they took in breathing it all in, learning all they could. Yes, it cost them in terms of making money and had they taken teaching certificate courses along the way or studied accounting or health services, they would have made more money sooner, but those years they spent doing as they pleased and studying what they wanted to study are so precious to them. How can one put a dollar value on that? But the thing is, there should also be an eye and ear out for other possibilities before the specter of the wolf knocking at your door becomes a reality. </p>
<p>So Plan B is too specific, IMO, though great if one can go that far, but being aware of the situation and possibilities out there is important. </p>