Is Singapore's death penalty justified?

mini · December 2, 2005, 2:07pm

Not if you are a Tamil or a Malay, but that’s another conversation. (You’d be appalled.) ;)

garland · December 2, 2005, 2:58pm

Xiggi–just wondering, which, if any, American “relative freedoms” would giving up be “well worth the price,” and what would you expect get to in return?

concerneddad · December 2, 2005, 3:00pm

good questions!

Woodwork · December 2, 2005, 3:24pm

I dont mean to speak for Xiggi, but its already common practice if it is for the common good. I understand, for instance, Affirmative Action to be a common practice for the common good even though it is a limitation on freedom. There are many others of greater and lesser degrees of nobility.

I supposed that this was, in fact, what laws for the common good were for. It is only to be determined what the common good is. If it includes having absolutely no drug dealers, then I would expect the laws to reflect that. Clearly, in America we do not believe that drug dealers are THAT bad for the common good.

A whole lot of people simply need to protect their stash and supply, and many others are worried about the consequences such a laws enforcement would have on their own confused and libertine children. Others hold such issues as a totem of freedom, like choice in the abortion debate, or life when parsing the death penalty.

mini · December 2, 2005, 3:40pm

“A whole lot of people simply need to protect their stash and supply, and many others are worried about the consequences such a laws enforcement would have on their own confused and libertine children.”

So THAT explains U.S. policy in Afghanistan! ;)

Woodwork · December 2, 2005, 4:03pm

Mini, I believe you mean Iraq and oil, unless you have some new information to the effect that Dick Cheney also has a severe heroin jones. If so, this will be big, big big!

system · December 2, 2005, 6:36pm

I am not disagreeing with Northstarmom’s point of view about the need for rehabilitation. However I hold to my opinion that there is an order to how things get done. Crime does not pay. The first order of business is punishment. Rehabilitation comes next. I would post the question can a person be truly rehabilitated if he/she hasn’t been punished according to the measure of their offense. Little Ricky poured milk over sister’s head during dinner. “Say sorry to your sister” said mom. Then dinner continues as Susy went to clean up. Has Ricky learned his lesson or will you send Ricky to his room, without dinner and no snacks around midnight either? He has to go hungry until morning.

momrath · December 2, 2005, 10:21pm

Singapore is not a democracy so what the locals give up – Chinese AND Tamils and Malays – is the right to be self governing. In my book this isn’t worth the tradeoff.

gatordan · December 2, 2005, 10:27pm

Of course it’s not fair, the guy was in posession of a chemical, and he’s gonna be killed for it. Drug prohibition as a whole doesn’t work, like I read somewhere “You cannot end an industry with a 17,000% profit margin”. I thought we learned this lesson back in the 20’s?

itstoomuch · December 2, 2005, 11:27pm

Sometimes I find that rewording makes the original question or even its answer, a good solution to idealistic questions.

thus " Is bringing in 400 grams (14 oz, softball size bag) with the intent of distribution, worth a neck stretch?"

Why are you worried about Singapore?

MYOB

Mr.B · December 3, 2005, 11:18am

First, I don’t think individual human beings have the moral authority to take lives so that would preclude them from investing that authority in their governments. This is strickly a religious argument.

Second, I don’t believe most murderers are thinking about getting caught.

Third, there are people convicted of murder who are found innocent by new evidence sometimes years later. The death penalty is not reversable yet.

Fourth, if we would invest in programs to help children to succeed in school the crime rate would decrease.

Lastly, once we have killed a person, we can learn nothing more from them, nothing about their decision process, or how that decision process came about.

concerneddad · December 3, 2005, 12:11pm

122 innocent people on death row who have been released since 1973. Still think the system works? Sorry, the phrase "close enough for government work,: does not for me in this instance.

NR
NAME
ST
RACE
CONVICTED
EXONERATED
YEARS BETWEEN
REASON
DNA ?
1 David Keaton FL B 1971 1973 2 Charges Dismissed 
2 Samuel A. Poole NC B 1973 1974 1 Charges Dismissed 
3 Wilbert Lee FL B 1963 1975 12 Pardoned 
4 Freddie Pitts FL B 1963 1975 12 Pardoned 
5 James Creamer GA W 1973 1975 2 Charges Dismissed 
6 Christopher Spicer NC B 1973 1975 2 Acquitted 
7 Thomas Gladish NM W 1974 1976 2 Charges Dismissed 
8 Richard Greer NM W 1974 1976 2 Charges Dismissed 
9 Ronald Keine NM W 1974 1976 2 Charges Dismissed 
10 Clarence Smith NM W 1974 1976 2 Charges Dismissed 
11 Delbert Tibbs FL B 1974 1977 3 Charges Dismissed 
12 Earl Charles GA B 1975 1978 3 Charges Dismissed 
13 Jonathan Treadway AZ W 1975 1978 3 Acquitted 
14 Gary Beeman OH W 1976 1979 3 Acquitted 
15 Jerry Banks GA B 1975 1980 5 Charges Dismissed 
16 Larry Hicks IN B 1978 1980 2 Acquitted 
17 Charles Ray Giddens OK B 1978 1981 3 Charges Dismissed 
18 Michael Linder SC W 1979 1981 2 Acquitted 
19 Johnny Ross LA B 1975 1981 6 Charges Dismissed 
20 Ernest (Shuhaa) Graham CA B 1976 1981 5 Acquitted 
21 Annibal Jaramillo FL L 1981 1982 1 Charges Dismissed 
22 Lawyer Johnson MA B 1971 1982 11 Charges Dismissed 
23
Larry Fisher
MS
W
1984
1985
1
Acquitted

24 Anthony Brown FL B 1983 1986 3 Acquitted 
25 Neil Ferber PA W 1982 1986 4 Charges Dismissed 
26 Clifford Henry Bowen OK W 1981 1986 5 Charges Dismissed 
27 Joseph Green Brown FL B 1974 1987 13 Charges Dismissed 
28 Perry Cobb IL B 1979 1987 8 Acquitted 
29 Darby (Williams) Tillis IL B 1979 1987 8 Acquitted 
30
Vernon McManus TX W 1977 1987 10 Charges Dismissed 
31 Anthony Ray Peek FL B 1978 1987 9 Acquitted 
32 Juan Ramos FL L 1983 1987 4 Acquitted 
33 Robert Wallace GA B 1980 1987 7 Acquitted 
34 Richard Neal Jones OK W 1983 1987 4 Acquitted 
35 Willie Brown FL B 1983 1988 5 Charges Dismissed 
36 Larry Troy FL B 1983 1988 5 Charges Dismissed 
37 Randall Dale Adams TX W 1977 1989 12 Charges Dismissed 
38 Robert Cox FL W 1988 1989 1 Charges Dismissed 
39 Timothy Hennis NC W 1986 1989 3 Acquitted 
40
James Richardson FL B 1968 1989 21 Acquitted 
41 Clarence Brandley TX B 1981 1990 9 Charges Dismissed 
42 John C. Skelton TX W 1983 1990 7 Acquitted 
43 Dale Johnston OH W 1984 1990 6 Charges Dismissed 
44 Jimmy Lee Mathers AZ W 1987 1990 3 Acquitted 
45 Gary Nelson GA B 1980 1991 11 Charges Dismissed 
46 Bradley P. Scott FL W 1988 1991 3 Acquitted 
47 Charles Smith IN B 1983 1991 8 Acquitted 
48 Jay C. Smith PA W 1986 1992 6 Acquitted 
49 Kirk Bloodsworth MD W 1984 1993 9 Charges Dismissed Yes
50
Federico M. Macias TX L 1984 1993 9 Charges Dismissed 
51 Walter McMillian AL B 1988 1993 5 Charges Dismissed 
52 Gregory R. Wilhoit OK W 1987 1993 6 Acquitted 
53 James Robison AZ W 1977 1993 16 Acquitted 
54 Muneer Deeb TX O 1985 1993 8 Acquitted 
55 Andrew Golden FL W 1991 1994 3 Charges Dismissed 
56 Joseph Burrows IL W 1989 1994 5 Charges Dismissed 
57 Adolph Munson OK B 1985 1995 10 Acquitted 
58 Robert Charles Cruz AZ L 1981 1995 14 Acquitted 
59 Rolando Cruz IL L 1985 1995 10 Acquitted Yes
60
Alejandro Hernandez IL L 1985 1995 10 Charges Dismissed Yes
61 Sabrina Butler MS B 1990 1995 5 Acquitted 
62 Verneal Jimerson IL B 1985 1996 11 Charges Dismissed Yes
63 Dennis Williams IL B 1979 1996 17 Charges Dismissed Yes
64 Roberto Miranda NV L 1982 1996 14 Charges Dismissed 
65 Gary Gauger IL W 1993 1996 3 Charges Dismissed 
66 Troy Lee Jones CA B 1982 1996 14 Charges Dismissed 
67 Carl Lawson IL B 1990 1996 6 Acquitted 
68 David Wayne Grannis AZ W 1991 1996 5 Charges Dismissed 
69 Ricardo Aldape Guerra TX L 1982 1997 15 Charges Dismissed 
70
Benjamin Harris WA B 1985 1997 12 Charges Dismissed 
71 Robert Hayes FL B 1991 1997 6 Acquitted 
72
Christopher McCrimmon
AZ
B
1993
1997
4
Acquitted

73 Randall Padgett AL W 1992 1997 5 Acquitted 
74 James Bo Cochran AL B 1976 1997 21 Acquitted 
75 Robert Lee Miller, Jr. OK B 1988 1998 10 Charges Dismissed Yes
76 Curtis Kyles LA B 1984 1998 14 Charges Dismissed 
77 Shareef Cousin LA B 1996 1999 3 Charges Dismissed 
78 Anthony Porter IL B 1983 1999 16 Charges Dismissed 
79 Steven Smith IL B 1985 1999 14 Acquitted 
80
Ronald Williamson OK W 1988 1999 11 Charges Dismissed Yes
81
Ronald Jones IL B 1989 1999 10 Charges Dismissed Yes
82 Clarence Dexter, Jr. MO W 1991 1999 8 Charges Dismissed 
83 Warren Douglas Manning SC B 1989 1999 10 Acquitted 
84 Alfred Rivera NC L 1997 1999 2 Charges Dismissed 
85 Steve Manning IL W 1993 2000 7 Charges Dismissed 
86 Eric Clemmons MO B 1987 2000 13 Acquitted 
87 Joseph Nahume Green FL B 1993 2000 7 Charges Dismissed 
88 Earl Washington VA B 1984 2000 16 Pardoned Yes
89 William Nieves PA L 1994 2000 6 Acquitted 
90
Frank Lee Smith
** died prior to exoneration FL
B
1986
2000 **
14
Charges Dismissed
Yes
91
Michael Graham
LA
W
1987
2000
13
Charges Dismissed

92 Albert Burrell LA W 1987 2000 13 Charges Dismissed 
93 Oscar Lee Morris CA B 1983 2000 17 Charges Dismissed 
94 Peter Limone MA W 1968 2001 33 Charges Dismissed 
95 Gary Drinkard AL W 1995 2001 6 Charges Dismissed 
96 Joaquin Jose Martinez FL L 1997 2001 4 Acquitted 
97 Jeremy Sheets NE W 1997 2001 4 Charges Dismissed 
98 Charles Fain ID W 1983 2001 18 Charges Dismissed Yes
99 Juan Roberto Melendez FL L 1984 2002 18 Charges Dismissed 
100
Ray Krone AZ W 1992 2002 10 Charges Dismissed Yes
101
Thomas Kimbell, Jr. PA W 1998 2002 4 Acquitted 
102 Larry Osborne KY W 1999 2002 3 Charges Dismissed 
103 Aaron Patterson IL B 1986 2003 17 Pardoned 
104 Madison Hobley IL B 1987 2003 16 Pardoned 
105 Leroy Orange IL B 1984 2003 19 Pardoned 
106 Stanley Howard IL B 1987 2003 16 Pardoned 
107 Rudolph Holton FL B 1986 2003 16 Charges Dismissed 
108 Lemuel Prion AZ W 1999 2003 4 Charges Dismissed 
109 Wesley Quick AL W 1997 2003 6 Acquitted 
110 John Thompson LA B 1985 2003 18 Acquitted 
111 Timothy Howard OH B 1976 2003 26 Charges Dismissed 
112 Gary Lamar James OH B 1976 2003 26 Charges Dismissed 
113 Joseph Amrine MO B 1986 2003 17 Charges Dismissed 
114 Nicholas Yarris PA W 1982 2003 21 Charges Dismissed Yes
115 Alan Gell NC W 1998 2004 6 Acquitted 
116 Gordon Steidl IL W 1987 2004 17 Charges Dismissed 
117 Laurence Adams MA B 1974 2004 30 Charges Dismissed 
118 Dan L. Bright LA B 1996 2004 8 Charges Dismissed 
119 Ryan Matthews LA B 1999 2004 5 Charges Dismissed Yes
120
Ernest Ray Willis
TX
W
1987
2004
17
Charges Dismissed

121
Derrick Jamison
OH
B
1985
2005
20
Charges Dismissed

122
Harold Wilson
PA
B
1989
2005
16
Acquitted
Yes

ariesathena · December 3, 2005, 2:27pm

Thanks, CD, for putting that up.

Overwhelmingly male list; fairly black (compared to the rest of the country); and I really wonder what crimes they were convicted for. Also wonder which of those states have judges who must face re-election.

IMO, the problem of acquittal from death row with DNA evidence is no different from acquittal from a life sentence: the person is still innocent. There is still the need for better, more efficient, and less overburdened labs and more ethical people who do those tests - regardless of the punishment. In some respects, a person on death row might be able to get more representation than the person serving a life sentence because of the slew of groups who work against the death penalty.

The thing that most bothers me about implementation of the death penalty is the wide range of crimes which are applicable. I disagree that, if you are aware that drug smuggling can be a death crime, that it’s okay. I just don’t think it’s okay to retaliate with a higher crime than the one committed.

mini · December 3, 2005, 2:33pm

“Mini, I believe you mean Iraq and oil, unless you have some new information to the effect that Dick Cheney also has a severe heroin jones. If so, this will be big, big big!”

No, I meant Afghanistan and heroin. Since the U.S. invasion, the value of opium production has increased from $41 million in 2001, to $4.5 billion in 2005 - you can figure the percentages out yourself, but to put that number in perspective, total non-military assistance from the U.S. to Afghanistan (besides the opium “subsidy”) is $479.6 million in 2005.

So we can subsidize prison construction for drug crimes in the U.S. while subsidizing opium production at the same time. It’s a good deal!

concerneddad · December 3, 2005, 2:39pm

aries, I agree that the same problem exisits with respect to the innocent serving life sentences. Although at least for them the only clock that is ticking is the natural, biologic one.

system · December 4, 2005, 5:28pm

I normally oppose the liberal ideology that if one person has it, everyone should have it, and one person can’t have it, nobody else should. In the case of death penalty, I would be heartless to apply this toward the death penalty. Since the sentence is irreversible, at least without divine intervention, I am for life-without-parole, for the most egregious criminals. Such a sentence will spare the victim’s family of going thru the travails of parole hearings years after the wound seemingly heal, and put death row lawyers on notice to practice other forms of law. And maybe if true repentence come, such an inmate will participate through media/prison program, personal writings… educate others to not go down that self-destrutive path.

Is Singapore's death penalty justified?

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