Is The College Admissions Process Broken?

[RWatterson]

@blossom

There are dozens of issues which society has either solved or gotten close to solving where the problem is NOT the science, but the communications, the persuading, the politicking, and yes, the ability to socialize or syndicate appropriately.

I agree, but a high score on a math test doesn’t preclude them from having some of these other skills. There are sociologists that are persuasive to the common citizen, and there are sociologists that are not.

In my youth I had to construct an argument supporting or opposing baboon heart transplant research (remember that?). It was a STEM competition, and one of the points they were trying to get across was the application of morals and ethics in STEM. Do we do things just because we can or do we do it guided by our morals, ethics and conscience? Cloning, CRISPR, etc. It is something that is forever relevant and a scary topic if one doesn’t trust the scientists. So I can get wanting to have some say over who has this “power”. But the way to screen out the baddies is not by finding out who got an 800M or a 5 on their CalcBC. Doudna and Elizabeth Holmes probably got similar scores? (I don’t know but I bet they tested really well). But one is heavily concerned about ethics and one is… not.

[RWatterson]

@Thorsmom66

My son wrote one essay about Star Wars . . .

Good writing + plus what feels like a thoughtful conversation that’s a window into the writer… My belief is that if you’re a good enough writer, you can write about anything yet still reveal your personality through it

[roycroftmom]

The anti-smoking campaigns were run by a series of advertising executives with government support. I doubt there was a scientist among them ( why would there be??). One can’t blame the scientists for the general lack of adherence to public health guidelines. They do the research to set the guidelines. English, psych and marketing majors are the ones who are supposed to sell them to the public.

[Doodlemama]

My daughter wrote her common app essay about our cat

[Aimlesscat1]

@Chekov

I do not think it is a contradiction to at once wish for more transparency in the process and to refuse to do things just for the sake of college admissions:-)

I think that we all would wish for that but it isn’t achievable when the numbers are so lopsided. If they gave weights to categories the conversation would then move into:

“why are the weights what they are?” when the weights didn’t align with a given applicants strengths.

“How do we rank different ECs?” My kids EC isn’t properly valued

etc.

It is a never ending story.

What would be nice is if they would make clear that the “non-profit” nonsense carries no benefit. We both agree that it is ridiculous.

They should do the same for pay-to-play research so families quit wasting their money there as well.

[FLMom2021]

It would be also be nice if students, and parents, had a more realistic view of the process. I am not referring to the elite schools but rather the “regular” competitive schools.

I am all for well rounded and good E.C.’s, but I see a misconception that those things will overcome weaker academics. The parents and kids see GPA and are dismayed when I show them the Florida recalculation that only looks at core subjects. Even outside core classes, the 2 sessions of PE that your high school approved doesn’t compare against a more academic elective. The 200 volunteer hours of community service from summer at VBS are not going to compete with AP Calc.

I am great with holistic because I believe in the intangibles and building an academically diverse class, but I am shocked at the kids who are shocked by denials when they really aren’t in the realm.

[Aimlesscat1]

@FLMom2021

Is this really an issue at a top tier school? Are kids with just average good test scores who wrote interesting essays about unique passions getting selected oven kids with stellar test scores who wrote safer essays?

Maybe here and there but they aren’t kids who weren’t otherwise qualified in terms of being able to excel and contribute to the school. And I very much doubt that the numbers are significant.

I can see where someone who has truly excelled at something quirky could get a nod as “they’d be fun to have on campus”. And, creating a community is an important institutional priority.

Graduation rates and grades demonstrate that getting in is a much higher bar than being able to do the work once you are there.

@Alqbamine32

I don’t know if there are such students, but the raging against holistic admissions seems to suggest that some perceive there to be a bias against top scorers.

I think that “perceive” is key here. Far too often families don’t come to grips with just how daunting admissions chances are for these schools and thus if their child doesn’t make it with stats that are around the mean for the school someone “less deserving” must have taken their slot. Nothing else makes sense to them especially if their child has always been at the top.

@roycroftmom

It was brought up in the Harvard suit by a minority group concerned about bias against it…

And Harvard won their case with no evidence of bias being found.

@FLMom2021

I see kids just competing for limited top state school university spots who will tell you it’s unfair. I think most of their teachers can point to why maybe it isn’t.

Unless they are in CA trying to go to a top UC. Nobody can honestly explain that one.

[ucbalumnus]

@FLMom2021

The parents and kids see GPA and are dismayed when I show them the Florida recalculation that only looks at core subjects.

Lots of high schools only report a very exaggerated weighted GPA, which may make students and parents overly optimistic about what colleges are realistic.

[roycroftmom]

So that, for me, is an indication of a broken process. Students and their families should not be misinformed about what ECs can or can’t do for you, or the relative weight of calculus compared to gym, or even the actual value of their inflated gpa. The fact that some students are shocked to get denials in an overly complicated opaque process is a problem, even if that outcome was the right one.

[FLMom2021]

Large public high schools don’t have the resources for this. I’ve been able to help my students because when my own kids went through the process at their small private school, focus on college admissions was a significant. I’m also a little manic . My S21 was applying during the covid year and the upside was many schools did informational webinars and I learned a lot.

[FLMom2021]

Honestly, some of them don’t want to know. They are all convinced they will be the acceptance that falls below the 25%. It’s not dissimilar to the average good athlete convinced he’s going pro.

The information is there. Some parents aren’t savvy and schools are overburdened, but I don’t think that’s a college admissions problem.

[roycroftmom]

In the time since the Harvard lawsuit was filed, Asian Americans increased from 17% of the incoming student class to about 30% at Harvard. So the lawsuit certainly served a purpose, if judged by the actual outcome.

[blossom]

@roycroftmom

They do the research to set the guidelines. English, psych and marketing majors are the ones who are supposed to sell them to the public.

Yes, this is how it has worked up until now.

My point is, would we get to a different end point with psychologists ON the research team to point out that 14 year old’s don’t care what a bunch of old geezers in what coats say-- let’s get a TikTok of Taylor Swift in a white coat asking the researchers “What’s the difference between starting smoking at 21 vs. 14 in terms of a kid’s life risk of lung cancer?” Or a sociologist (or a bunch of them) pointing out to the OB/GYN’s and Pediatricians who are- once again- publishing a white paper on teenage pregnancy risks who are embedded in the process. They might conclude “since the biggest predictor of a teen having an unwanted pregnancy is having been born to a teen mother herself”, perhaps having MOM’s become the subject matter experts on contraception- and not doctors- could be a strategy.

The old way-the serious folks do the heavy lifting, the ad agencies try to spin… doesn’t seem to be working.

But regardless- there is so much disdain (on CC and IRL) for kids who are not studying STEM and I’m just pointing out that the soft skills- those tuba playing youth symphony skills, those “empaths” who want to study psych or sociology-- can ALSO do the heavy lifting on big societal issues. Including clean water. The reasons why children get water borne illnesses in the developing world have little to do with the engineering of pipes and taps, and little to do with the science of viral and bacterial illness in babies.

[fiftyfifty1]

Your characterization of OB/GYNs and pediatricians as clueless and in need of embedded sociologists to help them understand teen pregnancy is way off the mark. The answer doesn’t involve getting former teen moms to become subject matter experts in contraception. What has worked is a technological solution: LARCs. When LARCS are available, teen uptake is high without any special advertising, convincing or psychologizing. OB/GYNs and pediatricians know this. Teen pregnancy rates have plummeted since the advent of LARCs.

ETA: Oh the seemingly endless books from the 1990s that were certain that the teen pregnancy rate could never be lowered because teens girls (even the ones that denied it!) had a deep psychological need to have babies so secretly wanted it and self-sabotaged their birth control. All of us doctors were just like “Nope, pretty sure the problem is they just can’t remember to take their pills. What we need is something idiot-proof.” And luckily the scientists listened to us, and engineered LARCs.

[ucbalumnus]

@fiftyfifty1

What has worked is a technological solution: LARCs.

Presuming you mean long acting reversible contraception?

[GVDADABRK2022]

The increase of government subsidies to these schools is the main culprit. I seem to recall a study performed by the Fed some years ago which showed a direct correlation between increases in government subsidies and higher tuition rates. A CBO study back in 2020 showed that student loan debt rose from $187 billion in 1995 to $1.4 trillion in 2017. The more the government subsidized higher education, the higher the demand grew and more colleges were able to increase what they charged (knowing that the government was there to act as a backstop for students). Government subsidies most certainly contributed to the bloat in these schools (non teaching staff). I mean seriously - how many DEI staff does a college really need?

It’s a case of government trying to do the right thing and making things far worse in the process - higher costs, more bloat, and more student debt than ever. To make it worse, they now want to simply erase all of it - a debt jubilee, and the process will begin anew. What do you suppose will happen to college costs in the meantime? They will continue to go higher.

And in a sick twist of irony, their “good intentions” seem to benefit the wealthy most of all, because they are the only ones who can afford this disaster. The rich aren’t to blame - they are simply able to take advantage of a system broken by “good intentions”.

[Mwfan1921]

When one talks about college costs, one has to talk about net costs, not gross (undiscounted) costs. I’ve posted this on other threads, but it’s misleading to talk about the ever increasing college costs when net tuition costs are decreasing and have been for a number of years. (I am not saying that college isn’t too expensive for many families and/or that in some states the relative net cost of the institutions is too high compared to median family income of that state.)

Here’s one of my previous posts:

College net tuition costs have decreased due to an increasing discount rate. Of course there is wide variability in what a given family might pay, but still, the averages are instructive from a macro perspective. Nor does this include room and board, but room and board charges are often discounted as well, not to mention many students can live off campus for all or most of their years of attendance at rates lower than what a college might charge.

From CollegeBoard’s most recent report:

Net Prices

The majority of full-time undergraduate students receive grant aid that helps them pay for college.

• Since 2009-10, first-time full-time students at public two-year colleges have been receiving enough grant aid on average to cover their tuition and fees.
• After adjusting for inflation, the average net tuition and fee price paid by first-time full-time in-state students enrolled in public four-year institutions peaked in 2012-13 at $4,230 (in 2023 dollars) and declined to an estimated $2,730 in 2023-24.
• After adjusting for inflation, the average net tuition and fee price paid by first-time full-time students enrolled in private nonprofit four-year institutions declined from $18,820 (in 2023 dollars) in 2006-07 to an estimated $15,910 in 2023-24.

Full reports available here , including data by income ranges.

Here are some different data (most recent data is academic year 2020-21), showing average net COA (so includes room and board) was $14,700 at four year publics for first time freshman.

In academic year 2020–21, the average net price of attendance (total cost minus grant and scholarship aid) for first-time, full-time undergraduate students attending 4-year institutions was $14,700 at public institutions, compared with $28,400 at private nonprofit institutions and $24,600 at private for-profit institutions (in constant 2021–22 dollars).

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cua

Paying less for school is possible, as these averages show. It is a choice for some families to pay more. Of course most families have college financial constraints which is often the primary consideration in choosing a college (or if college).

[GVDADABRK2022]

Have you ever shopped at Kohl’s? They send you an email with a 30 percent off coupon, so you go in and buy a shirt and some pants (that were marked up 40 percent to begin with) and apply your coupon, making you think you actually paid less, when in fact you did not.

Not trying to be flip here, as your post is very informative, but ballooning student debts simply don’t agree with the assessment that tuition is becoming increasingly discounted.

College costs have been bloated far beyond where they should be, so the discount is a mirage for most people.

[Mwfan1921]

@GVDADABRK2022

Not trying to be flip here, as your post is very informative, but ballooning student debts simply don’t agree with the assessment that tuition is becoming increasingly discounted.

The discount data are net tuition/net COAs are accurate, they are in black and white at those links. The average discount rate is estimated to be around 56% for 2022-23 (2021/22 was 53.8%), that is not a mirage for many people, by definition.

No one is saying that gross tuition charges haven’t been increasing. For many families that choose to pay full COA somewhere, they had a choice to pay less somewhere else. And that’s fine, their choice. But the average net tuition and net COA numbers don’t lie.

Much of the outstanding student debt is not from undergrad students. Most is from grad students, professional school students, for profit school students, parent plus loans.

[MDparent22]

At the end of the day, the process is broken - the evidence for this? The fact that more and more sites like this exist; the fact that people feel compelled to hire counselors and SAT tutors; the fact that kids are counseled to get high grades, take as rigorous a schedule as they possibly can handle; score high on SAT/ACT - even if they have to take it again and again and again, and take on as many “meaningful” extracurricular activities as possible. If I had been a high school student in this environment, I wouldn’t have made it. The kid does all that - they get a high GPA, rank top 10%, take a gazillion AP classes, ace all the AP tests, spend hours and hours on extracurriculars, and score high on ACT/SAT. And then they still don’t get into their in state flagship, and have to go to more expensive out of state school or private to find the right fit. I’m not talking about elite privates here, but the fact that public schools, funded in part by taxpayers, have become too elite for even the highest performing in state students - that’s a problem. Perhaps if everyone would just go back to going to their own in state schools - or privates, that would help - maybe. Or limit number of out of state schools one can apply to. It shouldn’t be this difficult and expensive.