While NU wasnât referenced in the previous article I sent, it it well known. They have a job opening on Workday now for Temporary Application Reader (this is for Grad school, but they do the same for undergrad)
So this is nothing unique to Northeastern. It appears to be a common practice in higher education. The seasonal readers are temporary employees of the university, not employees of a separate business, which is what âoutsourcingâ implies.
I 100% agree and I will say, the most financially successful people in my HS class were not the top students in terms of grades/test scores (myself included). And I went to a big, middle class public HS (so it wasnât a function of connections) Could be anecdotal, but the most successful were people in the next tier (not bottom half however) suggesting something is inefficient about the process. Even with grad schools, I was turned down by all 3 top ten b-schools despite having demonstrated success in the work world (I had mid GMAT scores). Now, I am a partner at one of the worldâs premier PE firms. The best predictor I have seen for success is (high EQ) and demonstrated work ethic (started working young). There needs to be a base line academic record for sure, but after that there are alot of other intangibles that cant be quantified that determine success.
LOL! I am sure you could make a very compelling case for that stance.
To me, it doesnât do much good to compare admission systems because there are so many other fundamental differences that would also have to change. My husband worked throughout parts of Europe shortly after college. There are so many differences in culture and values that may be subtle but are still significant.
Even if Europe has a superior college admission system, I donât think it would work in America.
I donât know if this is the most appropriate thread to ask, but I was talking to my D. She says one of the reasons she wants to go out of state is that itâs been really demotivating to see the kids that didnât work as hard get into our state schools, and even getting into the honors colleges. She says sheâs happy for them and she knows that itâs not about just getting into a school, but itâs about following through the next 4 years. Still, she says she needs to be in an new environment to stay motivated. Have any of your kids encountered this demotivation from the admissions process?
Comparison is the thief of joy.
Itâs hard for anyone here to give your daughter advice knowing so little about her. I would say (as someone who went to one of those âtop schoolsâ everyone wants to go to) you are going to encounter people âwho donât work as hardâ no matter where you end up going to school. Pro tip, you will also meet them at your job(s)âŠyes, even in IB and Consulting.
Will you feel better at an out of state school when you meet those âslackersâ who ended up in the same school, the same classâŠwith possibly the same grade (if those slackers just donât need to work as hard and still get good grades)?
I assume you mean financial success in the second quote, based on your first quote.
I do not think college admissions should aim to pick people who are the most likely to be financially successful. Instead I think college admissions should pick ones who are the most ready for a college education, headed toward many different kinds of future success.
Maybe this is because I define âsuccessâ more broadly: top research in a field, head of a national nonprofit, elected to important office, top doctor, head of design team of an engineering breakthrough technology, etcâŠmany of these are NOT going to be the top financial winners. Yet, they would be qualified as highly successful because they are highly positively impactful on society. For a subset, their success is highly contingent upon having top intellect. When you expand success beyond the narrow scope of income, many of those successful people were definitely at the top of their high school academically, and excelled in college as well(at a wide variety of schools), and yet others didnât go to college at all or did not finish. From my public large HS with a 60% overall HS graduation rate, the most successful in this broad sense of success were at the very top academically.
So I think her point was that out-of-state, she wonât know right away, and at that point she just wonât care anymore.
If the admission system is broken, it
May be because we have allowed and promoted this notion that a college acceptance should be a reward; that it should be exclusive and make you feel special.
I believe you had commented your daughter was looking at UVA and VT. Both of those schools are large enough that she will soon have a brand new friend group. It will not feel like high school where you tend to have classes with the same kids over and over.
A friendâs daughter got into a fairly selective private university. Our kids went to a small private high school where college prep was a big focus. The senior program where college acceptances were published (not by student) she was livid that 8 kids were accepted to the same school. She refused to believe it and was determined to find out who the kids were. Now, her daughter is thriving at that school and none of that mattered.
I really like how you said this. And I think that might be it. Sheâs looking for a different kind of reward now. Something more fulfilling, and not the same thing sheâs done the past 18 years.
But isnât it the case that the more elite you want to be in most areas, the more uncertainty and stress you will encounter, either in the preparation/practice/training or at the gateways where you may be admitted or judged in competition with others? (if you do not have substantial inherited advantage applicable to the situation)
It may be that she doesnât want college to feel like high school, but she doesnât know how to articulate that.
If an instate school is the best option all-around, I would encourage her NOT to room with someone from her high school. Consider what new interests she wants to explore without any consideration to the people she already knows there. She can make college a whole new experience, she probably just canât see that yet.
yes, that is why I specifically included âfinancial.â Obviously, success broadly defined comes in many forms as you note and is not the be all, end all.
I donât feel the system is broken, more that peopleâs expectations are.
My kid knew going in âthere will be 50k people applying for 2k spots. At least 15k of those kids (prob more) are going to be just as good as you or better, with not much to differentiate you from them. The school is going to pick and choose kids based on whatever they (the school) are looking for, and youâll never really know what that is.â
That gave her the reality check she (and our relatives) needed, so there was absolutely no disappointment when the rejection came. In fact, my daughter was very proud she got waitlisted to Harvard after knowing the actual chances.
Iâd agree if the âweâ is inclusive of the schools themselves and their admissions marketing. The system nurtures this belief and families eat it up, the schools benefit and add more fuel to that fire. My feeling is that the schools that do this, especially the ones with ginormous endowments should feel some societal obligation to calm this behavior. I find it one sided that I see opinions here that only the families should bear the burden of righting this ship.
Itâs this notion of college as a reward that shapes so many into transactional students and families. This is an important part of why âdisappointment in a familyâs resultsâ is not the necessary ingredient of someone being critical of the system.
Life eventually teaches all that the experiences of four years does not constitute the majority of what shapes that life.
As i stated before, Iâm not really a fan of letting private schools admit in a manner purely of their own construction. There are already laws restricting this and I contend they owe a huge debt to the society that has allowed them to be âhedge funds with a school attachedâ. Right now though, due to their popularity, there is no real powerful feedback to their actions.
I keep wondering what would happen if the 99.8%-60% income families and test scorers above a certain score (rated in context), as a block, randomly boycotted one of the Ivy+ schools in protest of some sort. Thereâs plenty of other great schools and only a couple of thousand would be displaced to another tier of school. But if Harvard was affected thusly, or at least knew they could be, would they be as comfortable holding their views as they do now? And imagine if all the applicants and donations went to BU instead for that year. What an interesting experiment that would be comparing those classes of those two schools.
I would definitely include the schools and marketing in this. Both my sons got relentless emails and flyers from schools like the university of Chicago. They were both very strong students who got some terrific acceptances. I doubt either would have gotten into Chicago, and furthermore, neither expressed any interest in the school (and others with similar marketing).
On the other hand, the fact that schools act like a business isnt entirely on the schools. Kids and parents go on tours and are wowed by all the bells and whistles that come with having endowments and donors. You can see it on these threadsâŠpeople comparing schools based on state of the art facilities, the upscale food choices, etc. I would love to go back to collegeâŠmost of them look like country clubs!
The schools should dial it down on the bells and whistles. If schools are allowed to only function as businesses then other admission policies involving diversity et al would also fall by the wayside. At some point I donât think itâs asking too much to try not to attract students for the wrong reasons.
I donât see that happening. In Florida, there are lots of kids who want UF simply because they want to be a Gator. Itâs been that way for a LONG time.
When I toured UF with S21 (before covid) the majority of freshman business classes were already online. Or, there were 300 kids enrolled in the same class but only 50 seats and if you donât get there in time, you are viewing it online.
Many people are shocked by this because they didnât dig deeper than âI really want to be a Gator.â The schools will not change if the public appetite for bells and whistles doesnât change.
As do most applicants I know. No one is unaware of how low the chances are at single digit acceptance schools. Thatâs not where the uncertainty comes from (and itâs a common, but false narrative on these forums that this is just about students chasing Ivy admissions and expecting to get in).
The uncertainty actually comes from the next couple of tiers down where all available data indicates you have a reasonable chance of acceptance but decisions are increasingly unpredictable so these unhooked kids are forced to apply to a larger group of schools each year. This effect is more pronounced for the donut-hole families that need at least some merit aid but are also hoping to get the best academic fit possible for their kids.