Regarding appeals as it pertains to the college admissions process being broken -
From my experience, there is a much higher liklihood there has been an issue with a student’s application - major mistake, off-putting tone, poor judgment, damaging recommendation, disciplinary issue… than the idea a school made a mistake.
And the broken part - who could prove otherwise?
These were not suggestions. Please do not ignore mod directives. Off-topic posts deleted.
Isn’t the debate about a broken system really about comparing the benefits of three different systems used by the best schools in the world
academic/grades/exam based selection system (China, India, Japan, Korea, Germany, France, Canada, US schools with in-state guarantees)
Academic/grades/exam based with interviews (England)
Academic/grades/exam/sports/parent donations/legacy/ECs/essays/First Gen/Minority…+ Holistic considerations + institutional priorities (US schools without in-state guarantees)
** Apologies for omitting countries in that classification
With about 3500 Universities in the United States you can find schools that admit based on all 3 of the criteria you listed
When people talk about the admission process being broken they are talking about maybe the top 50 plus schools in the country which have many more qualified applicants than spots available.
We live in Florida and i don’t hear my kid didn’t get in to Florida Atlantic. Florida Gulf Coast, University of West or North Florida, Florida International. or even University of Central Florida or South Florida.
Traditionally it’s University of Florida or Florida State which this year both schools will have over 70000 applications for a class between 6000 and 7000 at each school.
And also unique to the US is that the very top schools are Private Institutions rather than public entities and as such they are free to focus on their own needs and priorities.
US Universities and the Common App (amongst others) have contributed to create a system where it is common to apply to well over 10 schools (excluding applicants accepted in ED1/REA). This “inflation in the number of applications” serves the institutional priorities of the most selective schools at the detriment of applicants
At this rate, there are now applicants filing over 20 applications per cycle. This is unheard of anywhere else in the world. The situation would drastically improve if students were limited to 10 applications, which is already 2x the number of schools allowed in England through the UCAS system. Of course, such a limit would NOT serve the institutional interests of the schools, and has no chance of being implemented.
At the same time these private schools are dependent on federal funds and loans for their students which is also unique. In China, India and Korea the individual has to take a loan to support their education and repay it. Also it’s not as expensive in those countries . So even though the US schools are private there is a lot of tax payers money going towards them.
I think the main benefit of many European colleges isn’t their admissions process - it’s the low cost. In the US a talented, but poor, student who isn’t strong enough for one of the elite schools where there is generous FA, might have very few (or no) affordable college options - especially if they are in an area that isn’t commutable to CC (or a 4 year school). That isn’t the case in much of Europe where the cost of college is often much lower (for example, in France a year’s tuition for a bachelor’s degree is around 170 euros).
Looked at the tax rates in most of Europe recently?
Let’s use the actual data to keep things in perspective. This year, as of the Feb common app update, applicants who used the common app applied to an average of 5.7 schools. Note the common app does not have 100% of the US application volume.
Application limits don’t make sense for many applicants either, primarily merit hunters. IME applicants who apply to many schools tend to be merit hunters (because the level of discount is often not known before one applies/is accepted). Schools that don’t use a stats based grid type merit program generally can’t estimate a level of discount for a specific applicant until they see how that applicant compares to the entire pool (and of course the applicant has to get accepted).
And yet most Europeans have a significantly higher standard of living than most Americans. Investing in education is also considered infrastructure spending in most places. I would be more than happy to pay European taxes for European services, including affordable higher education. And yes, I’ve lived both places.
That could be an interesting post to start a new thread.
Tax rates are much, much higher in most of Europe. As a result, European governments provide much more in the way of public benefits. It is definitely a trade off. Personally, I’d be ok with higher taxes if more social benefits came as a result, but I can understand and respect that many people don’t feel the same. I do wish there was a way to make public colleges more affordable for poorer students - it seems profoundly unfair to me that one’s ability to access an education is reliant on being born into a family that can (and is willing to) afford it. To me, the affordability and access issues are the area where the US system is weakest.
The discussion on the UF thread is that public schools should be more open about their admission policies and that top students should be guaranteed admission to UF especially since several posters and their kids don’t want to settle for FSU, UCF or USF. The numbers just don’t work that way - too many applicants for too few spots, all with top scores and gpa. If Yale let in all the qualified applicants, they’d have 50k students, and then Yale wouldn’t be Yale.
How should the top private schools, or top public schools like Michigan, Cal, Virginia, change to make them earn the public funds? Should they become Oxford? Should they become China? Should we just make all schools a big lottery system and pull the (qualified) applicants’ names out of a hat?
In the UK, university admission is more predictable because of population ratio differences, and university costs are much lower and predictable. This contributes to a lower need to apply widely for admission, or apply widely seeking scholarships and financial aid.
I would also be happier to pay higher taxes for education… but the trend among my fellow citizens appears to be going in the opposite direction! I’ve lived in places where people ABSOLUTELY freak out at an increase in the mill rate, the periodic reval, etc. for local property taxes (and these are people with kids in the public school system!) which would go for local education. I cannot imagine the outcry over higher education (which many of my fellow citizens believe is a total scam because you don’t need a four year degree in CS since everyone “knows” you’ll do just as well coming out of a 15 week Coding boot camp).
My point was not a value judgement on the European system- just pointing out the fiscal reality that the way to achieve low cost public universities to the individual student is via higher taxes to the entire citizenry. And I doubt that’s a viable strategy for the US as a whole right now.
It is easier to get support for public universities which are actually focused on academics and do not provide the array of clubs, housing, food, and socioemotional support that most US publics do. In fact we do provide support for community colleges which are efficient providers of low cost classes
I am not aware of a lack of public support for West Point, Naval Academy, etc. all of which provide housing, athletics, food, etc. And although the quality of education is top tier, one would hardly describe the academies primary mission as “academic”.
Higher taxes is a hard sell in this country. Unfortunately, no economic or higher education system is perfect - they’ve all got their own warts.
The demand for seats at these schools is such that they can all forgo Pell grant money and student loan guarantees without missing a single beat in their operations. The result may be more full pay acceptances at a few schools but it isn’t something that is existential at all.
