Weren’t you talking about independent college counselors when you said this?..
1 Like
Do you have evidence for this? In the school districts with which I’m familiar (including my own), Language Arts and Math are the only subjects that students can study on an accelerated track in elementary school and middle school. In elementary school, students routinely skip grade levels of math (and just study with higher-grade classes during math time), and then the GT teacher works with 5th graders who are doing 6th or 7th grade math. In middle school, the typical accelerated 6th grader starts with 7th grade math and gets to Algebra I in 8th grade, but there are resources for students who are more advanced than that, and the transition to more advanced HS math is seamless. Advanced math is definitely not discouraged, and I don’t think my district is all that unusual in that respect. It’s easy to accelerate math placements, because it’s mostly based on an objective test.
2 Likes
Sorry but, high schoolers should be able to go through the process themselves. There is great value in doing so. Yes, there are good ones but, in an unregulated environment, you are better off investing the time yourself (parents and child) into the process. And there needs to be an apparatus in place for those students who don’t have the family support or resources to go through the process in place.
1 Like
Private college counseling is actually regulated to some degree, with the professional organizations requiring a certain level of experience and education for membership.
Regardless, knowing only what you have posted on CC, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a Canadian private school counselor to understand athletic recruiting and financial aid in US colleges…this does not mean the college admissions process is broken.
Not many US HS based counselors understand athletic recruiting either, so it would not be uncommon for a gc to suggest the family hire a counselor experienced in that world. In fact, that’s the ethical thing to do, per NACAC recommendations. The family can then decide how to proceed.
5 Likes
If anything, the +1 and +2 math tracks (leading to calculus in 12th and 11th grade respectively) are more common than they were a generation ago.
However, it seems that what parents of high achieving students think is “advanced” math is different now. +1 used to be seen as appropriate for the good-in-math students, but now it seems that many see it as “behind”.
While it is true that access to calculus in high school is not universal in the US, the “50% do not offer” does overstate the lack of availability, because many of the non offering schools are small specialty schools (including juvenile hall schools). Probably 70-80% of students are in high schools that offer calculus (rural and lower SES schools tend to be at the lower end of the range). However, access to calculus is gated by middle school math placement, which may not be purely based on math achievement in many schools. The latter is the more important limitation for many students who want to take and would be capable of taking calculus in high school.
1 Like
Do you have a source for this? Around 43% of US public K-12 schools are Title 1, many of which don’t offer calculus.
I don’t disagree about middle school gating. However, if the HS offers calc, many students who start HS with Algebra 1 could still get to calculus by doubling up on math (e.g., geo w/ alg 1 or alg 2) and/or taking summer school. At the schools that don’t offer calc, that still wouldn’t help the student.
1 Like
Our district has a regular math pathway leading to Calc AB in senior year, and an accelerated math pathway leading to Calc BC in senior year. That’s the limit of how much acceleration is possible in our high school. We’ve known several kids who were more advanced in math (for example, kids who participate in Berkeley Math Circle), but they still had to take the same courses at our HS as other students in their grade…
2 Likes
Counting by students rather than schools gives a more realistic assessment, since a small enrollment juvenile hall school or continuation/reform school would count as much as a large general school if counting by school.
1 Like
The math double up acceleration is typically not an encouraged option (especially since it would be for students not previously seen by the school as worthy of math acceleration), and may be logistically difficult in 6-period high schools. Likewise, summer school acceleration is not highly encouraged either.
Can we move on from the calculus in high school conversation and all its iterations, including, but not limited to, math pathways in your school. If you’re really interested in the topic, found a search for past posts on the topic with bring up dozens of threads, many of which are populated by the same users having the conversation here.
Similarly, let’s move off the conversations of athletic recruiting, whether a private college counselor is worth it, and similar tangents.
1 Like
In general the American model is both transparent and affordable. The vast majority of schools in the US are not highly selective and admissions is straightforward for those who meet the requirements. Public schools are also generally affordable especially in states with well developed community college systems. The education quality at these schools is also typically solid to excellent providing a good education to the citizens of their regions. We typically do not spend too much time discussing these schools on CC.
The typical discussion on CC is focused on a small number of extremely rejective private colleges as well as some of the top public schools. At most of these schools admissions difficulties are lees about ‘transparency’ than about numbers. They are pretty transparent; they have x number of slots.
A certain portion are allocated towards athletes and they have different admissions criteria which some folks don’t agree with but these spots aren’t opaque, they just have a different selection criteria with athletic skill as a gate which needs to be passed to be eligible for that pool. If you pass that gate you are competing within a different pool than the general population. There isn’t a transparency issue with this, they are an institutional priority and for some groups like the Ivies and NESCAC the rules are pretty well defined.
LDC preferences aren’t really opaque. They typically don’t change a great deal year over year, a certain percentage of the class benefits from by being members of these groups and if you are a member you have a larger pool of spots to compete for, otherwise you don’t.
What remains is the pool of slots for ‘unhooked’ candidates which is smaller than the nominal pool and is where most applicants land. Here things feel opaque but the results are really numbers driven. When you have 40 or 50 applications for each spot the numbers take over. If we assume that the majority of applicants are qualified then we’ll never really know the specifics of what caused any particular candidate to pass through the gate. The process is fundamentally rejective, not selective and even if you doubled or tripled the number of spots at T10 schools it would remain that way for them. But here on CC we often forget that they are a very small portion of admissions every year and for the majority of admissions transparency isn’t an issue.
6 Likes
deleted as OT per the Mod
Transparency may be a minor issue. However, affordability is a major one. FAFSA made it more difficult for middle-income families to get financing. Student loan interest rates are at a 25 -year high.
Many smaller schools that met the needs of a niche group are closing. Enrolment is dropping and I suspect when the dust settles after this cycle, the numbers won’t be pretty. FAFSA applications were significantly lower ( I read 20% lower at one point).
A couple of things I notice at a personal level. Tuition rates are rising, including housing and meals, but, merit awards are not increasing. I applaud schools that guarantee set tuition rates for 4 years.
I would love to see research on how the covid experience impacted students’ perception of university life. Obviously, kids are finding jobs and choosing the short-term benefits of money in the pocket versus college. It may be the best choice for some, but, I think in the long-term it may be detrimental to those who would have excelled in college.
Sorry, didn’t mean to derail the thread onto math pathways!
It was merely meant as an example to illustrate the cultural differences that make the US higher education system so unique. Usually, when someone brings up “but in Europe” or “but in Germany” money will at some point be mentioned - what I’m trying to explain is that cultural factors tend to be much much stronger in shaping an education system than how much money is in the system - and in the US, the problem rarely will be that there isn’t enough money in the system. Just as in healthcare, there is usually more money there than in Europe or other industrialised countries, but where that money comes from and its subsequent allocation differs and that’s based on cultural factors.
So two very very strong factors shaping the system in the US are the expectation that there must not and cannot be a standardised or even in any way objectively comparable high school exit or college entrance qualification and the expectation that every educational pathway after 12th grade of high school, entered into at the ages between 17 and 19, must be called college and be qualified as tertiary education, no matter what is being taught, with college being considered a stage in life, an “experience” rather than a system to deliver a specific qualification or training.
(That is not how any other education system in the world works, with only Canada being somewhat influenced by its bigger neighbour.)
The fact that this cultural Ideal of college, highly attractive to many, doesn’t match the reality, the academic needs and also the financial capacity of most, leads to this vast, unpredictable but beautiful landscape of institutions and experiences which have virtually nothing in common with each other other than they are all called college and are entered mostly by 17 to 19 year olds.
The vast variety of this landscape appears to require the corresponding vast variety and unpredictability of qualifications, admissions requirements and financing pathways. Some families, probably the ones that need it least, have the necessary amounts of money, institutional support, research skills and cultural capital to throw at navigating this, others don’t. Some 17 year olds don’t even really have families behind them.
I believe it is true that there is a way for anyone to attend and finance college in the US, but some students would really need the services of one of those consultants who cost about as much as four years of private college. But if they had that money, they wouldn’t need the consultant - they could just study, do ECs, play sports, work hard and apply wherever they think they’d fit best. I”d wish that for any 17 year old.
5 Likes
I think it’s hard for people outside the US to understand how much state autonomy plays into US laws, including those related to education. If anyone wants more context, this is a good summary, including pros/cons of the US model. Is There A National Curriculum In The US: A History Of US Curriculum.
Because there is so much curriculum variability state to state and even school to school, the higher ed model in other countries just doesn’t work here. IMO, that doesn’t mean the process is broken, just different.
6 Likes
I agree with much of what you’ve posted. Good summary.
BUT- I’ll push back on this. The kids without the social capital are often left behind or taken advantage of by the “fit best” myth. Myth- getting a Bachelor’s in “Legal Studies” puts you ahead of the curve for law school. Myth- majoring in Sports Management will turn you into a top agent, representing major athletes in their contract negotiations. Myth- majoring in Communications leads to a better paying job (i.e. producer at CNN) vs. majoring in history which leads to flipping burgers. (I know producers at CNN. They majored in history, poli sci, econ, foreign language/literature). And a pernicious result of the popularity of crime tv shows and podcasts- a BS in Forensic studies will make you a medical examiner. (In many states, the ME is an actual physician first… I don’t know if there are states where you don’t need an MD).
So I’m not a big fan of the “apply wherever you think you’ll fit best” philosophy. Kids who don’t have lawyers, physicians, etc. in their family or social circle get trapped by some of these myths. The for-profit colleges which suck up a kids Pell and leave them somewhat unemployable? Or even the non-profit colleges which have low value majors? Imagine being in debt for a BA in Travel and Tourism and starting your career at the car rental counter at an airport… a fine way to start a career in travel, don’t get me wrong- but most companies do NOT require a bachelor’s for these jobs. And the pay doesn’t allow for timely repayment of those loans. Kids in these majors- even in public U’s- think they’ll be running Disney or developing strategy for Princess Cruise lines, not working minimum wage jobs.
3 Likes
I do not understand your argument. I was talking about institutions. You are talking about majors.
Kids need to know what their affordable options are - which colleges can they afford the COA of and is a given college even an option, as in can they get in (and out with a degree).
And they should be able to find these things out without spending months researching this, whether on CC or elsewhere, needing parents in finance or HE, paying for a private consultant, and really they should be able to find out before applying to them all. (Which doesn’t preclude applying to some reaches, academic or financial, some lottery schools, Hail Marys, whatever.)
I’d say that for profit colleges, by definition ,aren’t the most affordable for kids who need aid. (The kids who don’t have probably fewer and different problems).
By all means, advocate for kids to choose the the right majors oncethey are there. But what does that have to do with the admissions process?
1 Like
I know kids who have specifically chosen a particular college because of a particular “employable” major. How many kids post on CC that even with two affordable options, they are “stretching” because neither of the two affordable colleges “has my major”.
Frequently, the major (Golf Management, some subset of Recreation, the aforementioned Forensics) is nowhere near as employable as a straight up finance or chemistry major. And the colleges don’t bother posting on their website underneath their program in Legal Studies-- “Caution- you will need three years of law school with a BA in legal studies”. Or “You will be qualified to be a corrections or parole officer with a BS in Criminal Justice, it will not allow you to defend people in court”. Or even "In this state, you need a Master’s degree to be certified in X (OT, Speech, etc.)
1 Like
And more accessible, predictable and transparent information which colleges are affordable and within reach for a particular student would imoact that problem how?
(I’m going to rant about a relative for a sec, but it’s relevant to the question posed in this thread)
DH’s sister (SIL) often uses the phrase “it’s not fair.” For example:
- It’s not fair that other people get paid more than her or her spouse
- It’s not fair that the bank didn’t tell her that if she shopped around for a better mortgage rate, she could have gotten better loan terms elsewhere
- It’s not fair that nobody tells you how to find scholarship info on colleges’ websites
- It’s not fair that nobody tells you about Cool Program X, Y, or Z
- It’s not fair that nobody will hold her child’s hand to teach them good personal finance techniques & tips
- It’s not fair that no one will reach out to you even though you haven’t asked for help, in order to hold your hand the entire way through the college application process.
- It’s not fair that high school X, Y, and Z all handle everything a little differently from each other and that nobody reached out to her to tell her that high school Q handles things better than high school X.
- Or my personal favorite…“It’s not fair that you (meaning me & DH) have all of this college admissions info and I don’t.”
…you get the idea.
Is life fair? NO!
Did anybody hold my DH’s hand through all of it as he slogged through community college & then a public university? NO.
Did anybody hold my hand when I decided to pursue an MBA part time while also working full time? NO.
Did anybody hold my hand and counsel me one on one to tell me what the required business classes were before I could even apply to the MBA program? NO.
What did we have to do in all of these situations? HAD TO DO OUR RESEARCH AND FIGURE IT OUT FOR OURSELVES!
People like my SIL have the power of the entire Internet in the palm of their hands every day in the mobile phone they carry around on their person. Or if you don’t have a mobile phone and don’t have a computer at home, you can go to a public library and look stuff up on the public computers there.
What did we do?
- figured out who knows more about it than we do.
- talk to people who know more than we do.
- do a boatload of internet research to get more information
- use the search function on a heck of a lot of college websites
- attended online free info sessions
- started our research early
- did research on options for how to pay for college
- did research about our local community college & in state public universities
- talked to counselors at school
- attended the optional info sessions that the school counselors had
- did more research
…you get the idea.
What does my SIL do? Absolutely nothing. Takes no action. Isn’t proactive. Doesn’t ask questions. Does no research. Doesn’t try to help or guide her kids whatsoever. Wants to be spoonfed and wants somebody else to do it all for her so she won’t have to.
SIL and people like her can look up the EXACT SAME INFORMATION that I have. Read. Do some research. Ask questions. Talk to people. But my SIL doesn’t want to have to bother.
And then she complains that “it’s not fair.”
Oh…you’re a student who wants to go to law school, med school, business school, whatever? Great! So don’t just sit there and feel sorry for yourself and moan & groan about how nobody will help you when you haven’t even ASKED or looked up ANY information.
Join a club at your school.
Start a club at your school.
Ask around. find somebody who is IN the job you want. Ask THEM what it takes.
Learn how to look stuff up online. Google is your friend.
If 1 of your buddies says “Oh, college X is poo because it’s not highly ranked,” smile and nod and say “ok,” and then do what my lawyer sister always says…Trust but verify. Look it up yourself.
Figure. It. Out.
If you look at the world like my SIL does, then yes, the college admissions process is broken because everybody else isn’t going to spoon feed you and do it all for you. But if you put in a modicum of effort, you CAN find a good school that will:
a. be affordable
b. have a program that you/your kid wants to study
c. be a good fit for your kid socially & academically
</end rant>
11 Likes