Is the GC crazy?

Parents Forum
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<p>Well, Dad II, to revert to the original question about the sanity of the GC, I’d say that your latest addition does not bode well for trusting her level of competence. </p>

<p>From the list of schools you have disclosed so far, which one do YOU think makes special “accomodations” for specific majors? Do you think (or better said, does the GC think) that “announcing” a potential major carries much importance when adcoms evaluate … admissions. Would that mean that MIT or Stanford would look more kindly towards a “declared” humanities’ major as opposed to one who considers electrical engineering? Wouldn’t that be tooooooooo easy?</p>

<p>I realize that your statement has TWO drivers: the choice of major and the passion for the subject. While the second one MIGHT transpire through a strong combination of ESSAYS, constructive commentaries in the letters of recommendation, AND tangible ECs, the choice of major won’t have the relevance you may hope for. </p>

<p>If your daughter truly possesses the passion you “describe” it will be easily noticed by the adcoms. And so will be an effort to boost an admission by paint-by-the-numbers strategies. </p>

<p>Let you daughter be herself and forget all the angles and oblique games. It will work out and she will find a school that fits her to a tee.</p>

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<p>Well, Xiggi, the GC said the selection of major is an important factor. If I remember it correctly, he used Cornell as an example. Some mojor at Cornell has much more strong applicants than others, he said. </p>

<p>I also seem to recall about some posts on CC stating a girl may get in MIT for EE if competing with a boy with equal “everything else”.</p>

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<p>Maybe it’s just because I’m from the west coast, but we have lots of ES majors, definitely more “hot” than “odd”. There are plenty of kids thinking green, and many go into ES. Also, it is (rightly or not) thought of as not being as difficult a major as chemistry and other sciences.</p>

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<p>I agree with Xiggi that the choice of major is not going to matter at those schools. There is NO commitment made to the major ahead of time (or at least not that one or for a BA) and so not a LOT of stock is put into announcing of an INTENDED major which could easily change. On top of that, environmental science is pretty popular these days. Like xiggi says, it will matter more that she shows depth of exploration and activities with her field of passion but not so much WHAT field is chosen as her intended major. </p>

<p>I agree with Carolyn, that if chasing merit aid, you have to look at schools a tier or more below her profile level and actually have schools on the list that OFFER merit aid (more than one for sure). </p>

<p>If your D has a 34 on the ACT, I honestly do not believe a 35 or 36 is going to make or break her application to those schools. Those schools do not pick kids on stats alone. Yes, you must have stats in the ballpark. Once you do, the REST is going to matter. They will reject PLENTY of kids with a 36. They may take a kid with a 33 over a kid with a 35 if the kid with the 33 has a lot more going for her in the overall package. It is not about the numbers once the student is in the right ballpark numbers-wise for elite schools. A 35 vs. a 34 is not the difference for your D. Also, like Carolyn says, we don’t know the breakdown of the total score, and that also matters. But assuming she has a 34 with the subscores close to that, it is good enough for ANY college. She does not HAVE to retake. If she WANTS to, no problem. I don’t think that truly matters in her case but I don’t know enough facts to go by here about her. I agree with Carolyn that Vanderbilt is a better shot but the overall list may be weak in match and weak in safety schools, let alone weak in merit aid schools IF you are truly seeking merit aid. </p>

<p>Anyway, I can’t imagine telling anyone, no matter how stellar, that I was confident she’d get into the match or reach schools or any schools with an admit rate as low as the majority of schools on your list. I would say they are an appropriate canadidate, but they need to balance the list. Only the safeties are sure bets. Your D has one safety (state U) and I hope she is very interested in it. Nothing wrong with State U if it is her favorite safety but otherwise, she needs another or different safety she likes .She should have two safeties so she has a choice. And she should have a balanced list of reach, match, safety. I don’t think your GC’s definitions of reach/match/safety are the same as mine. But if your D applies to 8 colleges, the balance ought to be 3 reaches, 3 matches, 2 safeties. And schools with very low admit rates are REACHES by definition of their high selectivity, not due to not having stats in the right ballpark.</p>

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<p>Dad II: In agreement with SoozieVT and Carolyn, I would just add to be very wary of “likely admit” schools. My daughter was admitted to Harvard and was a full ride Emory Scholar, but was waitlisted at Wash U. (She did not stay on the wait list.) Her friend was admitted to CalTech but not Cornell. Another friend was admitted to Cornell but not GW. Another was admitted to Harvard but not Cornell. Applying in the regular round also puts a very different spin on things than applying in the ED round. Both Cornell and Wash U are very enchanted with their ED applicants. This is not to say that your daughter will not get in; personally, I’d just like to have extra insurance.</p>

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<p>The more selective the school, the less numbers driven it is. The GC should tell your daughter to be more concerned about EC’s, essays, recommendations. Other than the state u, you daughter has no matches/safeties on her list (especially in view of the fact that she’s considering re-taking the ACT). Even if she had a perfect ACT, she has no matches/safeties.</p>

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<p>I am glad that twinmom gave that anecdotal account because in my work, I see the same exact thing. Johnny gets into A but not B (both highly selective) and Susie gets into B but not A (applied to same two highly selective schools). This happens A LOT with schools with low admit rates! </p>

<p>Your D’s list is lacking in matches, safeties and if you care about merit aid, schools of that sort as well. This is a chancy game you are playing.</p>

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<p>I just wanted to join the chorus and urge you to take another look at your daughter’s list and add some matches and safety schools. (You could even add more reaches if you wanted to, the numbers being what they are for this year’s hopefuls.) If you don’t buy this, take a look in the CC archives for the high school class of 2005, searching for “Andison,” a very highly qualified student with a heart-wrenching outcome. (Although he is ultimately happy at a top school.)</p>

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<p>For the record, I wish to add that the advice being given is NOT to say your D will NOT get into those schools, but simply that they cannot be counted on. We also don’t know your D’s full profile which goes way beyond numbers anyway. But even if we did, many of us would feel that the very low admit rate schools are reaches for anyone given the odds even with the stellar profile. We’d love for you to come back in April and say, “she got in them all!” We are not doubting that this could happen but just saying not to expect it and thus plan better with her list. What we don’t want to see happen is for you to come back in April with just the State U acceptance, particularly if that is not a school she really likes (which means it should NOT be on the list) or isn’t really right for her or she only has a single choice (options are nice to have). She should have two safeties she likes and would be fine with attending. Also, if you want or need merit aid, even if she gets into those schools, you are not left with good odds with merit aid as you don’t have enough merit aid schools on her list where she would be in demand.</p>

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<p>I understand the admission to these schools are “chancy” and that we will need to go lower ranking to get more merit aid. Believe me, I do.</p>

<p>The reason we, GC, DD and me, have such high confidence is because of the past admission results. The HS tabulates everyone’s GPA and ACT (or SAT) from the last 5 or so years. Rarely, if any, there is someone from this HS with the same stat like DD’s that failed to get into Vanderbilt or UVA or U Mich. So, we are thinking Vanderbilt (ranking at 19th) is a safety (except the financial part).</p>

<p>Going back to the original question. I don’t fully understand GC’s reason for asking DD to take ACT one more time. May be it is because one of her sub score is on the low side. GC is just being polite about that. In one way, I am glad he did the asking. If DD could spend just a couple days studying for this test, she could very well hit a 36. I mean, she got very close w/o any studying</p>

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<p>Vanderbilt has a 34% admit rate. If I went by my D’s stats alone, the school would appear to be a “safety”. HOWEVER, in determining reach, match, safety, STATS are only part of that evaluation. The ADMIT RATE also goes into assessing which schools are a reach, match, or safety. So, while my D’s stats were higher than a majority of those admitted to Vanderbilt, their admit rate would make it more of a match school. Perhaps it would be an “easier match” but not a safety. She was a valedictorian as well and had a perfect GPA in the hardest tracked classes and a full range of accomplishments in both academics and extracurriculars. That’s the kind of assessment I mean. So, Vanderbilt may be a match or easier match for your D (and I can’t even say that at all as I don’t have her complete profile), but that would be the only school on her list that is in that range. She should have two more matches and another safety. </p>

<p>If you want merit aid, it doesn’t make sense to only have one or two schools that offer it and even so they have to go lower than her profile. Merit aid is another chancy factor and I don’t know how important it is to you but that must also be built into the list if it is very important to you and may even entail applying to more than 7 schools to increase those odds and options, as well.</p>

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<p>All of the top schools have gotten much more competitive over the past 5 or so years. This past year, two kids from my son’s high school with higher stats than he had were rejected from Columbia to which my son was accepted 3 years ago. You and your D’s guidance counselor are deluding yourself with stats. I live in Virginia, and if you think an acceptance from UVA for any out of state student is a GOOD possibility, think again. Five years ago, UVA was basically a safety for kids at my son’s private high school. It is no longer considered a safety and less and less kids are gaining acceptance.</p>

<p>Again, I wish your daughter well and hopes she gets into all of her choices, but honestly, if you continue basing your confidence on previous admittees from your D’s high school by comparing stats, you are making a big mistake. I, as I’m sure several posters here, know of at least someone who ended up with a very unhappy child come April due to simply looking at stats.</p>

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<p>If I understand the GC correctly she is only advising taking ACT again over the SAT I. I read her as saying, “Your ACT score is so much higher that your SAT we are not going to bother with the SAT, so if you have to retake anything, retake your ACT.” That is not the same thing as recommending retaking the ACT.</p>

<p>About majors: OP is right about Cornell, even if this is not true of the others. Cornell has seven school that each have different admission standards. It is a lot easier to get into AgSci than Arts&Sci and the profiles of the applicants are very different. I don’t think there is a good option for merit money there though.</p>

<p>I quadruple what everyone has said about chanciness of admissions. DS was accepted at Brown (which he decided against for his own reasons) – admit rate 13% and rejected at Bates – admit rate 28%. BTW he did earn an ACT of 34 and I would never have dreamed of asking him to retake. He did not study at all, except for looking at one test to prove he shouldn’t take it with a very decent SAT score. He took a practice and scored 34 and repeated this day of test. He was shocked!, dumbfounded really, that he earned a 36 on the science subtest because he found it the most difficult. This bodes well for his plans of being a music majoring doctor.</p>

<p>It never hurts to round out your list a little, no matter what the GC says. Trust us, you’ll be happy to have more choices in April than less.</p>

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<p>Another aspect of merit scholarships to consider is the timing of interview weekends. Most interviews are manditory and many overlap by a day or more, often making it difficult to attend more than one. My D was invited to three and had to chose one. She was lucky to be offered a 2/3 tuition scholarship from Emory even though she didn’t attend, but she was out of the running at the other school. She chose to interview at the school where everyone invited got at least a partial scholarship (which also happened to be the school she liked the most). </p>

<p>I agree with Soozie, if you are seriously considering merit aid, you will likely need to apply to more schools. My D applied to 5 schools known for generous FA and 5 with merit aid that ranged from half tuition to full COA. The way we looked at it, after four years of hard work, she got one chance to apply, so we weren’t taking anything for granted.</p>

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<p>I agree with the others that your D does not have a lock on anything. </p>

<p>Colleges build classes according to their institutional mission (nothing trumps the institutional mission) and they are not at a loss of students with good “numbers” tossing their hat in the ring. The only thing the numbers do as Courier would say is get you to the table. It is a combination of the soft factors and how you “fit” the schools institutional mission that gets you an invite to the big dance.</p>

<p>With Harvard, Princeton and UVA no longer participating in the early pool, it is going to be a new admissions cycle. There are students who were willing to toss an application at Harvard, Princeton and UVA just to see what if or to get a lock on ED. Since these schools will be looking at somewhere close to 20,000 applications each (give or take) students who were looking to Duke, Wash U you for RD may now be trying to get in ED since Wash U is known for waitlisting a lot of students (especially those that don’t show them love by visiting).</p>

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<p>I just want to add that WashU likes to feel the love from applicants. It would be worth the time and expense, in my opinion, to arrange a visit, especially if you are hoping for merit money.</p>

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<p>Agreed. My daughter did visit Emory before she was admitted and was invited for Emory Scholars Weekend. She was not able to visit Wash U and got zip. We suspected that would be the case and were okay with it; she did not have a love affair with the school. Clearly they saw that.</p>

<p>It is very hard to get a Duke full scholarship as well.</p>

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<p>Dad II, If you are looking at Naviance data, the only numbers I would trust as reliable history are scores and acceptance results since the SAT was changed. This coincides with the format, and, more importantly, the uptick in numbers of applicants and subsequent tightening of the pool.</p>

<p>My kids’ schools have many years’ worth of data, but the only relevant data as far as I’m concerned is the past two years. The results (at least among the many incredible kids we know) are strikingly different vs. kids with the same numbers, GPAs, and awards that went through this five years ago.</p>

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<p>Dad II, it is true that many engineering colleges would like to improve the ratio of females to males. Some think that means it is easier for a female to be admitted than a male with an equivalent record; not everyone agrees that is the reason for a higher admit rate for females than males, however. At high end schools, it may (or may not) reflect a stronger female applicant pool.</p>

<p>You also raises the issue of whether it is easier to gain admission upon declaring an “unusual” major. I think you are confusing the issue of “major” with the choice of college within a university. At some of the schools on your daughter’s current list, it is probably easier to get admitted to the School (or College) of Engineering than Arts and Sciences, simply because the overall school rank is a good deal higher than the rank of the engineering school, so the applicant pool is more competitive (for example, Wash U and Vanderbilt).</p>

<p>But how is any of that relevant to your daughter’s situation? You have mentioned in this and other threads that she is interested in pursuing a career in the sciences, not in engineering. Can she write essays that will persuade admissions committees, and scholarship committees, that her true interests lie in engineering? If it appears that she is merely gaming the admissions and scholarship procedures, the theoretical advantages of gender and engineering admission will be for naught.</p>

<p>For what it’s worth, some of the engineering profs at Vanderbilt are indeed engaged in active environmental engineering research (I think they may actually be chemical engineers). If your daughter wants to go the engineering route, she should start researching the work of profs at the schools and determining whether or not she is interested in engineering. I don’t remember what your daughter’s math background is like, but if she is applying directly to engineering schools, it will have to be strong. (Especially for any merit award in the engineering schools.)</p>

<p>I will end by echoing several of the earlier posters: the admissions picture at many schools is changing quickly. There was a lot of talk at several Vanderbilt functions over the last few months at how much stronger the applicant pool was last year than even one year earlier. Geographical and ethnic diversity are increasing, and test scores are rising. Admissions rate has fallen, and the 34% rate noted above is probably high. Nonetheless, I know of a couple of students with good, but not great, records, who were admitted last year. The only one who garnered a merit scholarhip, however, had a great record. </p>

<p>Do yourself and your daughter a favor, and try to add some schools that are appealing and true “safeties”. It cannot hurt.</p>

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<p>As an aside, my daughter applied to Wash U for engineering, a field she was contemplating at the time. Although it’s “easier” to get into their engineering school, she was not accepted though she did gain admittance to several higher (non-engineering) programs and schools as noted on a prior post.</p>