Tough decision. Our son also got a better offer at Lehigh than at Penn State. If he combined CS with Engineering, then Lehigh might provide more value. I know that Milersville is not that highly respected, but someone who is talented in CS like your child should be able to excel in getting a job regardless of the school. Most CS interviews evaluate technical ability, so it may not matter as much about where he goes. Good luck.
Would think long and hard before committing to a regional university like Millersville. Lehigh would have a much better career placement office, where the students can have access to more opportunities than at a regional university. The types of companies that come to a regional university are typically looking to fill general positions. (I teach math at a regional U., and so am familiar with the resources available.) Also, as mentioned upthread, the pace and quality of the CS courses will be different.
I normally would not advocate taking a loan, but in this case - with the flagship being even more expensive than Lehigh, perhaps Lehigh may be worth it. Ultimately, you will have to run the numbers and see what works for you. I did google the CS dept. at Millersville, and will note that it seems fairly strong for a regional university. However, one really cannot compare it to Lehigh, which is on a different tier. The mid 50% range of SAT scores at Millersvile is roughly 200 points lower - in math - than at Lehigh, which means the peer environment will be much different, even in the CS major (collegedata.com).
Is it possible to arrange for your son to sit in on an intro CS class at Millersville? If he is advanced, would he be able to test out of the some of the intro classes there? He will clearly be one of the very top students in Millersville.
I’m not clear about the financing. Are you borrowing money as well or is the total debt between you and your son for Lehigh $54,000? If so, could you take on $27,000 in loans and he take on $27,000 in loans? I do think Lehigh is worth the extra dollars. I know the type of student that goes to Lehigh and the type of student who goes to Millersville. Call me an academic snob but I would dearly want my child to be with the Lehigh students. That said, I would not overload myself or my child with a lot of debt (anything over $30,000 is a lot of debt to a new college grad).
http://www.millersville.edu/computerscience/curriculum/courses-offered.php lists Millersville CS courses.
http://catalog.lehigh.edu/coursesprogramsandcurricula/engineeringandappliedscience/computerscienceandengineering/#courseinventory lists Lehigh CS courses.
It looks like Millersville has a fairly complete set of the basics, although Lehigh may have more electives. CS appears to be a small major at Millersville, at 1.68% of graduates. With about 800 graduates per year, that means about 13 CS graduates per year. From the class schedule at https://max.millersville.edu/prod/hwzkschd.P_MU_SchedbyDept , it looks like Millersville tends to have 40-50 spaces in entry-level CS courses, but only 25 spaces in each of upper division CS courses, and they appear not to get full.
Lehigh is tied for 101 - barely MISSING the top 100
Fixed that for you.
Lehigh is a well regarded national research university with a strong and well placed alumni network. It also offers more resources and opportunities beyond CS than Millersville. The most popular major at Millersville is education and the school has a 39% graduation rate vs @76% 4yr and 88% 6 yr rates at Lehigh. While I would typically say choose the least expensive option for CS, I think this is apples to oranges. I’d choose Lehigh.
There definitely are variations in difficulty even if the same upper-level CS courses are offered. I once looked at the OS final exams of MIT, Yale, UMD, Rutgers, and Wichita St.
MIT’s was most difficult, but Yale and UMD’s were only slightly less (UMD is known to be strong in CS, for those who don’t know). There was a definite gap between Yale&UMD and RU (which I would think can stand in for a generic flagship), and a definite gap between RU and WSU. In fact, a good chunk of the WSU OS final wasn’t even problem solving but questions like “what is a thread”.
Recruiters certainly would be aware of the quality of the CS programs (I would think that Lehigh would be at or close to the Yale/UMD level). Not saying that a CS major from Millersville can’t do well, but he’d probably have to ask for special projects from the profs or work on open source projects or something and if he’s a Google-quality coder, most of his classmates would be far from his level. Ergo the Lehigh alumni network is almost certainly stronger.
Everyone has to do what’s best for their circumstances, but I would spring for Lehigh.
And yes, following the GF is a terrible idea.
Also, I don’t see how grad school rankings matter much for undergrad. Yes, the top 20 in the CS grad school rankings would tend to be strong for undergrad as well, but as an example, neither Harvey Mudd or the Cooper Union would be anywhere in PhD rankings, but many folks would take their undergrads over those with a CS PhD ranking in the top 100.
Next up is figuring out a way shore up the difference with something others than loans. Can your son work part-time during the school year and full time in the summer? Has he been applying to outside scholarships? Is he willing to put all this high school graduation money toward college expenses? Also, is the $54k in loans assuming the cost of attendance listed by the school? Can he cutback on housing, food, transportation, books, etc? Every dollar saved and/or earned is one less being financed by loans.
A good rule of thumb with regards to loans is this: no more than the median salary of recent grads with a degree in X. $54,000 is at the upper end of the “take the loans” range - for instance, an education major should probably choose the cheaper schools - but CS/engineering graduates are in demand, and repaying loans is easier for those students than for most.
I don’t know what Lehigh’s policy is, and if a sizable majority of upperclassmen live on campus, this might not be the best idea, but is it possible for your son to move off-campus after a few years? It’s not uncommon for room and board to be $2000-$3000 higher than the cost of an apartment off-campus, especially when 3-4 students are sharing the cost.
no to wcu, especially not on loans, and even worse - to be with his current girlfriend.
In this situation - talented coder, highly respected school vs. Err, mismanaged lower-tier school - I’d say to go with Lehigh. He’ll probably make good money in internships that he’ll be able to put away toward what would otherwise be the additional loan.
If Lehigh will still be financially unmanageable, can he take a gap year and apply to Temple? They give a lot of merit (check it out) , and have a respected CS program. It would be much better than Millersville. And please take WCU off the table.
During gap year, student can take computer courses on Udacity or Coursera. They do not count for university credit, but could perhaps help him get a part time job during the gap year. My kid is in high school and does odds and ends type of computer work part time for a small business.
I would advise gap year only as a last resort if Lehigh would cause excessive financial hardship.
In this instance, given the information made available, I would absolutely choose Lehigh.
OP- you are lucky.
If your kid were deciding between Cornell and Millersville, the hordes of anti-elitists would be descending upon you to explain that only a prestige-^&* cares about the “name”, and that all CS or engineering is the same, and that only a fool pays for college when their kid is going into a high paying field like CS.
Fortunately, you are making a different decision so you are being spared the “don’t be a jerk, send him to Millersville” screed. Apparently Lehigh is sufficiently 'better" than Millersville whereas Cornell or Dartmouth or Columbia or Harvard or Brown are not. So you’re getting some thoughtful responses and not the knee jerk “the ivies are a rip-off” reaction.
I think you might benefit from asking a different question- rather than comparing the CS offerings pound for pound… ask your son to look at everything else. He will be taking courses outside his major. He will be living with kids (certainly at Millersville but also likely at Lehigh) who do not share his interest in CS. He will be participating in EC’s with kids who aren’t coding jockys like he his.
So he needs to imagine his entire existence at college first, before he can focus on how meaningful the differences rae between the CS offerings.
To me the GF issue is a non-starter but that’s me.
Good luck- your kid sounds terrific.
Not sure if it is “lucky” to be a PA resident who has to face the choice of either a PASSHE school that seems to be widely reviled, or a too-expensive-with-poor-financial-aid flagship (Penn State), or a private school that is also too expensive (“too expensive” meaning parent loans or parent-cosigned student loans needed). If this is the typical choice that PA residents face, perhaps that is why PA tends to be one of the top states in college loan debt.
Is there an outside scholarship that he could apply for to bring down the difference? I’d also have him looking for the type of summer job where he can make the most money possible. My daughter qualified for a local math/science scholarship that takes $5k off her tuition every year. She also works a summer job waiting tables at a local hot spot where she makes far more money than she could at any other summer job. She is able to work there when she comes home during breaks too. She also works a job during the school year where she works 10 to 15 hours a week and earns $12 an hour assisting people with disabilities. That second job takes care of all of her expenses and wants that occur during the school year. We decided that it was worth it to pay more for a private school with a good reputation rather than send her to one of our state schools. I think it sounds like it is worth it for your son to attend Lehigh, but I don’t necessarily think you have to take out loans for the entire difference.
UCB- Pennsylvania still has the dubious distinction of the lowest geographic mobility of any of the 50 states- which confounds me, given what you state (and what I know) about college financing in the US.
I think it’s a weird snobbery about the PASSHE schools. In CT you are an elitist of the highest order if you don’t want your kid at Southern CT State… or any of the other directionals, but I know in PA it makes you a smart consumer not to want your kid at a college which- pound for pound- is pretty similar to Southern, Western, etc. in CT. In CT I don’t think ANYTHING besides the flagship at Storrs is a great option for a science kid- whether engineering, CS, or the traditional disciplines but I’m considered an elitist from the git-go so feel free to disregard my POV.
For a top notch CS kid I think there is much more to college than just taking classes. You can be steeped in a culture of tinkerers and imagineers at a university with a strong CS program… vs. just taking your classes and trying to get outside opportunities which fit your needs.
That doesn’t mean this kid can’t get a fine education at Millersville- and I’m sure he can. But I know enough CS kids coming out of top programs to see that it’s not just classrooms and labs. But is that “cultural” stuff worth going into debt for? I wouldn’t presume to tell someone else how to spend their money.
The issue of “can you get a good job coming out of XYZ college” is a red herring in my opinion. The top-skilled, highly motivated kid who is good at networking can get from anywhere from anyplace.
This is not the typical college kid however- many of whom go to a job fair at their college, drop their resume off at 50 places, and then wait for the phone to ring. The idea that there are OTHER employers out there- and it’s going to take some shoe leather to get noticed there- isn’t 100% consistent with today’s college students and how they view the labor markets.
But the OP’s kid sounds fantastic and motivated and yes- there is luck in having a solid affordable choice in hand.
Assuming the same debt assumptions, I would spring for Cornell over Millersville as well.
This isn’t a situation where someone is deciding whether to take on $100K more debt to attend Cornell instead of Cal.
I don’t think that is quite right Blossom re 33. This not over 100k of debt vs no debt for an elite vs a very good research U as in say the U Del honors vs Penn thread. This is <30k diff for an excellent research u compared to a regional college.
Can anyone knowledgable answer the question of whether A kid with a Comp Sci degree from anywhere will get the same level of job as a kid graduating from Lehigh? Will a kid from Millersville have access to high paying internships which may reduce the needed loan amount in the last couple of years of college? That is the question i would be asking.
I wouldn’t call it “access to internships”. As I pointed out, kids who aren’t at the top schools need to show initiative and work at getting internships and jobs. The OP knows whether her kid is likely to be the go-getter from Millersville who ends up at internships side-by-side with the kids from the better known Comp Sci schools.
I work (voluntarily) with kids who haven’t launched post-grad. I’ve heard every story in the book as to why a kid waits until summer after senior year to figure out “hey, I need to find a job”. The kids from colleges with a robust career services operation have a huge advantage- huge. There are savvy counselors there who can do video interviews and give them feedback (stop pulling your hair, don’t say “um” every fifteen seconds, you need to make eye contact with your interviewer) as well as introduce them to lots and lots of companies at job fairs and other networking events. But the kids at colleges without these resources can launch themselves perfectly well.
Many don’t. Lazy, in denial, too much schoolwork, “senior year was for spending time with my sorority sisters, not interviewing for jobs”, athletic obligations.
If the OP’s kid has a decent amount of initiative he can get himself the internships and jobs.
But I still maintain he needs to consider everything else- the intellectual environment when he’s NOT studying CS, the type of classes and lectures and seminars that will fill his schedule for his non-major classes.
Are THOSE going to be challenging and inspiring or just another box to check?