It’s interesting that you should revert to using a sports analogy because I was first struck by your use of the term “joy” regarding the pursuit of a EC the child was not necessarily or initially good at. I think of piano lessons as a typical example, but maybe being told to take up basketball with no prior experience might be just as good preparation for “real life”?
If it were true that the non-elite-education immigrants from Asia are similar to the elite-education ones in tiger parenting their kids to academic success, then why aren’t Hawaii public K-12 schools seen as highly competitive academic environments, and why isn’t University of Hawaii considered a top end university?
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Yes, but about 90% of of the low income students at Stuy are Asian. The Stuyvesant Controversy and the Lose-Lose Fight over Educational Access | Mercer Street
“In fact, while Asian students make up 74% of Stuyvesant, they represent more than 90% of its economically disadvantaged students (Tso). The truth is that Asian Americans in New York City have the highest poverty rate out of all ethnic groups,” The reduced lunch rate cited in the article was 43%.
But the point I was trying to make is that parents need not be highly educated to want to push their child’s education. It is both part of being an immigrant and driven by the importance of education in their home countries.
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Yes, but at the same time from the same article linked above, "in 2017, 17.8% of the Stuyvesant graduating class—a total of 146 students—were accepted into either Stanford, MIT, UChicago, or an Ivy League university, ". So while parents may be less stressed about their kid not getting into an “Ivy”, they certainly are applying (and doing disproportionately well). What the stats are for 2023, I don’t have at hand, but I don’t think 2017 is an anomaly.
It’s funny. We’re both looking at the same statistics and I would argue that they support both of our replies! 
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You aren’t a tiger parent if your kid practices 5 hours a day and dreams of becoming a professional. But you are a tiger parent if your kid practices five hours a day and can’t wait to go to college so they never have to play again. Kids in the first category exist, but are far from the majority.
This applies to any activity and not just music.
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Please see BKSquared’s reply to you in post 342.
I am sure immigration of high acheiving parents from other countries does account for many “Tiger Moms” with successful kids in the US, but there are many anecdotal stories about uneducated parents arriving without the proverbial pot-to-piss-in who drive their kids to claw up the socieoeconomic ladder through education and excellence.
Interestingly, while people talk about high acheiving Asians, one hardly hears mention of Nigerians who value education and entrepreneurship. https://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php
I’ll go ahead and be the poster that objects to talking about race on this thread. I think there is a place for that on CC, yes?
My half Asian kids hate being stereotyped.
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There are low-income immigrant families of all ethnicities who were middle-class and/or well-educated in their home countries, but have had to start over in the U.S… For example, I have a family member who was a teacher in her country of origin but housecleaner here. D24 has a friend whose parents were middle-class at home but work as a dishwasher and restaurant hostess here.
I think that sort of upward mobility is not that unusual among low-income families whose children achieve academic success in the United States. I do think it is significantly less common for children whose parents were illiterate or without any resources at home to immigrate here and find success if for no other reasons, those families are usually unable to emigrate in the first place. Certainly the teacher to housecleaner or hotel staff is pretty typical of the low and middle income families receiving financial aid at my kids’ private schools; even the lowest income families tend to have a base level of security, and those kids end up doing well or at least OK. The kids whose families are experience food insecurity, homelessness, or deep poverty are the ones who really struggle and sometimes drop out. This experience is true for families from all countries of origin.
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Let’s move on from demographics at individual high schools
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I definitely have the inner workings to be tigery. I’m type A, worked hard in college, wanted all the academic accolades, and did well in my career. I also put a lot of stress on myself. I made a decision early on to let my kids forge their own way. With guidance from me, of course, but I didn’t want them to be in any type of pressure cooker based on what I thought they should do.
The only things I asked of them–that they work for As because they are capable, that they each participate in something athletic and something artistic. They decided what to try, how hard to work, what colleges to apply to. Neither of them applied to T20 schools even though they had strong enough credentials to. My daughter graduated summa cum laude from a tough public and will be taking the LSAT this fall after taking two years off to work in performing arts. My son is doing great in college while continuing to explore his passion in the arts.
Kids who are smart and hard working will do well no matter the school. I have no doubt that mine will be very successful, and I’m very happy that they are happy.
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To sort of circle back to the original question, it seems to me most multi-gen/UMC US parents also value higher education, and see a good college education as the usual next step for their kids on the path to their own UMC life. Maybe not always, but I think we often, perhaps inadvertently in some cases, communicate the expectation most kids will go to a good college barring unusual circumstances.
It seems to me then the distinction is more that many of us don’t think a good college education that will lead to UMC levels of success is particularly scarce. For many of us this is reinforced by having colleagues who went to a wide range of colleges. So, we know from experience the Ivies, Ivy+, T20s, whatever, simply are not necessary for such a life path.
As mentioned before, in my experience when this is pointed out, some kids/parents relatively unfamiliar with the US system are tremendously relieved. But others get pretty defensive about their limited ideas of what counts as a good college. I sometimes wonder if part of what is going on is a sort of competition between those of us trying to communicate that message but who are in essence anonymous strangers, and real world peers and family members who keep insisting on that short-list way of thinking.
But in any event, my point is whatever explains this, it isn’t just the idea that a good college education is usually important to comfortable success in US society, because that belief is widely shared at least throughout the UMC. The critical distinction is the specific belief that a good enough college education is very scarce, available only at a relative handful of colleges.
And that may also be more common among certain immigrant families (although I have encountered it with domestic families where the kid is the first to be college bound, those families seem more likely to be relieved to learn differently rather than to dig in). And I do understand in other countries, it may only be a handful of colleges that historically have unlocked anything even very close to a US-style UMC outcome.
But not in the US. We just have a LOT of colleges that cater to UMC kids on their way to UMC outcomes themselves.
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I think posters - myself included - are discussing race because that was the focus of the article that started the thread.
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That is because Nigerian immigrants (often initially arriving as PhD students) are a small minority of Black people in the US, so they do not get noticed as much as Chinese or Indian immigrants who make up a much larger portion of their ethnicity in the US.
People look tend to look at race first (as this thread shows), and the Nigerian immigrants are too small in number to set the stereotypes associated with Black people, unlike Chinese and Indian immigrants. Immigrants from Europe similarly do not set the stereotypes for White people.
Our New England town student population is 45% Asian-American or foreign born Asian. Tiger momming amongst these groups is still the norm but hasn’t really grown. In many cases it seems like n
borderline child abuse.
For non -Asian families moms especially will obsess over every detail. However they don’t push the kids due to worry about their self-esteem. It really prevents a good learning experience for the student on how to get stuff done.
All that said, the reality is that admissions are increasingly competitive and an A- vs an A can have a major impact. Many parents feel like there’s no room for the smallest error academically or administratively and they’re not wrong.
Luckily in our town, among the non-Asians in particular there is a growing acceptance of vocational endeavors. Outcomes for a skilled electrician can be far better than a degree from a lower tier college.
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My wife’s family is mainly 2nd gen Italian and Portuguese immigrants. Interestingly, college attendance is VERY important. Not necessarily prestigious colleges (although these Catholic immigrants have BC in mythical status that’s better than Harvard)
Some of the college age kids in the family would be better off in a hands-on occupation like their dads and granddads. Doesn’t matter. Mom, dad and especially nana and nono want a pic on the wall showing a college graduation.
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I think that last part is problematic. Outcomes for a skilled electrician ARE better than someone that doesn’t hustle, work hard and take advantage of opportunities at any tier of college.
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This is definitely a big issue in my view. I have tried to communicate to our kids this could be a perfectly fine outcome, but I don’t think it was really effective. Between the K-12 schools we chose, and just the way we talk when we are not being super careful, I think they absorbed the expectation that college will simply follow HS.
So personally, I try not to communicate to our kids that maximizing earnings automatically means a better outcome.
And when it comes to trades like being an electrician, one of the possible outcomes is to end up owning a successful small business. Whether or not this maximizes your theoretical earnings, it is a life path some people find very satisfying.
And of course others are fine not doing anything like that. I just think too many kids who can do reasonably well in college prep classes are then pushed into actually going to college without a lot of thought being given to whether that is actually the best next step for them.
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Completely agree. “ Better outcome” can mean a range of different things to different people. I also think that owning a business can be a a great advantage. On a basic level, despite the fact that a self-employed vocational professional may not be wearing business casual with the obligatory fleece vest, they don’t have to kiss the boss’s you-know-what, produce TPS reports, or deal with corporate groupthink. Also, the outsourcing of certain knowledge workers, either by less expensive people or, eventually, wide-scale AI, is changing the basic economics for many college-education “required” jobs.