Is tiger parenting the norm among upper middle class parents?

This whole thread is interesting to me.

I came to these forums late, as it turned out, when my kid was a junior. By then, it became apparent that she was on track to be a 4.0 student with 15 APs and a National Merit Finalist. This had not been part of any college admissions plan; she had always been focused on sports. But it dawned on me that her “stats” looked like those of the students who went to Ivys and “top” schools, so I came here to explore possibilities. Certainly, at her school, fellow students (and their parents) assumed out loud that someone with her record would be going to Harvard or Stanford.

I quickly realized I was about five years too late. People here already knew so much about what their kids wanted to study, and what each school offered, and had gone on so many visits already. My kid was just settling on a possible major and had done zero related extracurricular activities at that point.

My parenting style had been to expose her to a ton of activities when she was young and then see what “stuck.” The things that stuck were kind of haphazard and did not create a nice curated story for applications. And my kid was not quirky or unusual or mature beyond her years in a way likely to lead to some insightful personal essay that would take those haphazard activities and knit them into something that made her stand out from the crowd of conscientious, hardworking kids trying to figure themselves out and do something good in the world.

So on the one hand, I kinda get the tiger parenting thing. Those parents are desperately trying to catch up with the parents (generally of multiple generations of wealth) who are “in the know” and have had their kids on track for highly selective schools since birth. They see it as their kid’s ticket to that wealth class in an economically fraught time, even if they don’t appreciate the value of a Wake Forest versus an Ivy.

If you roll up like I did, coming from an area where most families are choosing between large public schools in the region or maybe opting for community college, it is a little shocking to realize that your child may be graduating at the top of their class with lots of school and community involvement and awesome test scores — and they are just “average” applicants as far as top schools are concerned. It struck me as a bit unfair that she didn’t get extra points for accomplishing her achievements without taking any test prep or multiple tests, without getting any guidance from school or other counselors. It struck me as even more unfair that she would have had a leg up if she were coming from a highly-regarded public or private high school that hired counselors who maintained relationships and strong communication with highly selective colleges; it seemed to me that doing it on her own should have counted for more than whether her high school was a “known” entity.

So. I started to see how the admissions system at highly selective schools is rigged to benefit the wealthy and well-connected. There are also opportunities (albeit not easy to get) for the very bright kids who are the least wealthy and unconnected, who qualify for Questbridge and other full-ride FGLI scholarships.

But if you are fortunate enough to have parents who can afford college, but who are not in the wealthy, connected, “in the know” class, chances are that the highly selective schools are not in the cards. And that reduces your chances of entering the wealthy, connected, “in the know” class yourself.

And bam! That thinking right there is where the tiger parent is born. Parents don’t want their kids to be shut out.

I came from a non-illustrious background but attended a well-regarded school and got a professional degree. I didn’t ever feel all that comfortable rubbing elbows with the “in the know” crowd, so I guess I self-selected our family to a less prestigious zip code. That may well have limited the prestige of the colleges my offspring could attend in a way, too — something a good tiger parent would never have done if they could help it.

I have feelings of ambivalence about it. On the one hand, I don’t think my kid would have thrived at an Ivy despite being qualified, in my opinion. But is that a chicken or egg thing? Would it have been different if she were raised in a different zip code? On the other hand, would I really want my goal to be to ensure my kid is part of a wealthier, more connected sliver of society? It could add to pressure to find ways to stay in that rarefied air even when one’s talents or interests are not consistent with that level of income, etc. It could also limit exposure to and understanding of how the rest of the world works and how little one really needs — a lack of perspective.
Kind of a “be careful what you wish for” thing.

Anyway, we quickly assessed that the tiger train was not for us. And my kid is enjoying life at a “safety” school 100% by choice. I definitely feel like that makes us a minority in certain circles, although not in our neighborhood. In a lot of average middle America, people still think the smartest kid in the class will get into Harvard just because they were the smartest kid in the class. It doesn’t occur to many people around here that there would be any additional role for a parent at all.

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Even 30 years ago UCLA was not a target or likely (USC certainly was). I say this not only because I was rejected while coming from a prestigious boarding school (Exeter) and was admitted to Cal! Now full circle since my son will be attending UCLA and he is among a pretty tiny percent of kids admitted for his major.

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The amount of tiger parenting is directly proportional to parents’ insecurities about their kid’s future. I suspect, the stakes were not high in the past – there were plenty of career opportunities for everybody to have a decent living and attain the American dream (a house, two cars and means to raise and send two kids to college). These days are over, or the parents perceive them to be over. Heck, I have a child doing CS at Stanford, and I worry he won’t find a job after graduation. Thousand people applying for 20 internships, etc. Parents get anxious when resources get scarce.

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Speaking as a parent whose kids have been on an “in the know” path since before kindergarten–yeah, it isn’t fair at all. I think it is understandable when you really think through the institutional goals of these colleges, but that doesn’t make it fair to the kids.

But then the whole tiger thing, for reasons we have been discussing, seems to me like a dangerous overreaction.

OK, so how to help parents with normally-raised but academically-ambitious kids who are only belatedly becoming aware of this whole system not overreact? I have no systematic answer, but I think of communities like this one as basically doing exactly that, trying to get such parents up to speed on how this system really works, what matters and what doesn’t, what your options really are beyond just the obvious, and so on.

And although this sounds a bit dismissive it is also completely true–there is always grad and professional school. Seriously, if you get “in the know” in HS, it is very much not “too late” precisely because college admissions are not at all the last step in the process for most kids on such paths.

Are they?

Again, the US upper middle class still exists. The other families not technically upper middle class but doing the American Dream thing also still exist. It simply cannot be impossible to do that because so many are actually doing it.

I think as others are suggesting, though, as really is true throughout socioeconomic history, as times change, paths change too. Certain colleges have gotten a lot harder for admissions. Certain cities have gotten a lot more expensive relative to market incomes when it comes to starter homes. Majors get “hot” and then oversubscribed relative to job opportunities. And so on. So paths like that may not be as easy as they used to be.

But other paths exist, as indeed they must. Other colleges. Other cities. Other majors. And so on.

I get this is stressful sometimes for parents because we would love for it to be as easy as telling our kids to do what we did and then it will work out well. But if that is not an option, we have to be flexible enough to help our kids see the paths that can still work for them, even if they are different from what we did.

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I would say in my area there is less tiger parenting than there was 10 or 20 years ago. I know a ton of bright kids who are not going to college and whose parents are fine with that. I was just happy my oldest graduated high school (smart kid, just hated high school and didn’t want to be told what to do). My kid did some community college (did not get an AA) and works now. Has done some continuing ed associated with the job and loves to learn, just on their terms. I know a lot of kids who are going to community college and then maybe or maybe not transferring to a state school (which are very good in my state).

My nephew who is 35 now went to Penn but I don’t personally know any kids in my area (super smart area) who went to an Ivy. Don’t even know any by hearsay although I’m sure there must be some given how smart the parents and kids are around here. I know way more kids who are just opting out of college.

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Midwest mom here who totally agrees. Very uncommon for more than a handful of the hundreds of graduates to go to college more than 1 state away. So many of the parents want them to stay close. While I understand cost limits, I feel several would have cheaper options out of state based on grades, etc.

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Also, to be clear, chasing merit aid should not be confused with tiger parenting. Helping a child find the money to make college affordable is a completely rational use of parental responsibility. But since Ivies don’t offer merit aid, we’re really describing a very narrow segment of parents who are willing to spend more money than they can possibly afford without sacrificing the little grace notes that make life enjoyable in order to attend colleges known for their conspicuous consumption. Makes no sense.

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I agree with your POV about opportunities, and thinking outside the box. However, as I said, there is perception (right or wrong) that the stakes are much higher, and competition is fierce. Except for very few status-oriented people coming from certain cultures of social circles, I believe that the vast majority of parents do not want to be tiger parents. They much rather enjoy and celebrate their kids’ childhood and go about their lives without the added pressure.

I do believe that tiger parenting is not rooted in the desire to brag, or live vicariously through one’s children but in anxiety.

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Really? Resources are more scarce than they were during the Depression? Parents are anxious now-- and they weren’t when their sons were enlisting in WW I and II? Heard a wonderful lecture by Professor David Blight about the number of young men who left Yale to enlist during the civil war (he wasn’t suggesting that this was a unique Yale phenomenon- but he’s a professor at Yale and he was driving the point home that the conflict from “long ago” has significant consequences even now…)

Or more recently- are things worse than they were in the late 70’s and early 80’s? I graduated into a recession-- and I think the most emotion my parents could muster was “You’ll figure it out”. Which I did- as did my classmates-- but the employment situation/high interest rates was not conducive at that time to becoming a self-supporting adult!

I think the stakes were HIGHER in the past. How many of us have elderly relatives who were War Brides who married men who shipped off two days after the wedding-- and who ended up at Omaha Beach, terrified and unprepared? The stories my late Aunts told about their choices-- marry the boyfriend knowing you might be widowed young, or postpone the engagement until after WWII ended? And who knew when that would be? Or if we’d all be speaking German by then?

It’s easy to whitewash history and claim that we are now living in fraught times because CS majors are no longer guaranteed 6 figure jobs at Google the day they graduate. But I’m not buying it. We’ve lived through generation after generation coming of age in eras of shortages and anxiety and somehow the parental attitude was a shrug-- “you’ll figure it out”. Gotta be something else to explain the hysteria right now!

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I agree that an overreaction to perceived scarcity is contributing, but then see the story (admittedly secondhand) above about not being content if your kid ended up a grade school teacher in Vermont with a house full of happy kids and some dogs.

And I suspect many of us would have stories about encounters, particularly online, where we try to suggest this scarcity is artificial, which should be good news, and in fact then sometimes the parent is relieved. But also sometimes the parent (either directly or as reported through a kid) gets very defensive about insisting on certain “top” colleges being far better outcomes.

So I don’t like to leap to attribute “bad” motives to people, but on the other hand, we parents are in fact people. And some people are in fact highly motivated by things like relative wealth, power, social status, and peer approval. And so some parents are going to be like that too.

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I enjoy how you always put things into perspective, and thank you for this. Where I live, there is hysteria on several levels, and mostly about housing. A low six-figure income is considered below poverty level. Again, I am not saying all this is justified, but it does contribute to tiger parenting and interference

https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/under-100k-low-income-san-francisco-18168899.php

The new 2023 numbers classify an individual making $104,400 annually as “low income” in San Francisco, San Mateo and Marin counties. For a family of four in those three counties, $149,100 a year is considered low income. That number has increased dramatically over just a few years.

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At my kids’ small public charter high school, tiger parenting is definitely the norm. But the school is something like 70+% Asian and a lot of those kids’ parents are immigrants. And those parents’ frame of reference is they, generally speaking, will often assume that getting into college here in the US is similar to the ultra-competitive dog-eat-dog “if you don’t ace the annual national standardized test in high school, then you’re doomed to a lifetime of mediocre work and mediocre pay” environments they are familiar with in their countries of origin.

Some of those parents are willing to pay whatever it takes for their kid to attend a ultra-expensive college and yeah, that even includes UCB & UCLA. There are kids at our HS every year who apply there.

Every year, our HS has a small # of kids who don’t listen to the college counselor’s advice, so they instead apply to 19 lottery schools and only apply to 1 in-state public university, then they get rejected from all of the lottery schools and attend the in-state public for really cheap tuition (since their super high GPA gets them free or almost free tuition).

Some of my kids’ close friends have told my kids that they’re petrified of bringing home less than an A. One kid would get grounded if the kid brought home anything in the B range on a report card or a test. in order to compensate for this, some of those kids end up studying for hours and hours and hours and yeah, it definitely takes its toll.

Ironically, most of the graduating class ends up attending an in-state public university anyway when it’s all said and done.

I’ve seen parallels of this in youth sports. Back when my kids were younger and they did year-round swimming, a lot of those swim parents were seriously nuts. They’d talk about how this was going to be their kid’s ticket to getting a cheap education at an elite university. And we’re talking about 9-11 yr old kids here. Meanwhile, we just wanted our kids to get some exercise and have fun while they were doing it…and the neurotic parents were spending $500+ dollars a pop on a ‘tech suit’ for competitions like state long course championships for a 10 yr old. :roll_eyes:

If you, the parent, only listen to the loudest voices in circles like that, then yeah, it’s really easy to get sucked into the drama and you can end up thinking that the only real way your kids will have a chance in adulthood is for you to push them to the Nth degree.

And that’s how you end up with parents panicking when their kid brings home a couple of B’s on a report card and the parents now wonder if their kid isn’t college material.

Will the kid in such a situation end up at Harvard or Yale? No. But I’d argue that this isn’t the end of the world.

Parents have a lot of potential to totally screw it up on this topic with their kids. Push & encourage just the right amount, but don’t go off the deep end or else your kid could end up being one of those horrible statistics of students who have to drop out due to a nervous breakdown or being suicidal.

Tiger parents also need to calm the heck down and stop defining success for their kids in such a narrow way (i.e., “graduate from a top 20 college and become a doctor, lawyer, or engineer/computer scientist”).

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History is helpful here.

The original “tiger parents” were actually Jewish Mothers.

The pressure was often guilt and a different type of emotional blackmail, but that pressure was there “yes, one son is a Nobel winning writer, but the other one is DOCTOR”. While they weren’t saying “if you don’t get accepted to Yale, you are an embarrassment to the family”, believe me when I say “If you loved me, you would do this”, “you are squandering all of the hard work that we put into getting you here”, “please,do this for me”, etc, is just as effective. There was also societal pressure as well. If you were a Smart Jewish Kid, you were expected to be accepted to an “elite” college, and excel later in life. That is how Asimov grew up, that is how Stephen Jay Gould grew up, how Feinmen, grew up, etc. Jewish immigrant communities were extremely close knit, and expectations of the community were almost as intense as those of the immediate family.

These kids who were guilted and pressured to attending Ivies and such, grew up, had their own kids, and those kids started to apply to UFL, Rutgers, USC, Tulane, UIUC, etc.

Richard Feynman attended MIT because he could not get into an Ivy (being Jewish). Richard Feynman’s son attended MIT, but MIT’s acceptance rates were 32% in 1980 when the kid was accepted, and the Ivies no longer had “Jewish Quotas”. He also studied Linguistics and philosophy. Richard Feynman’s grandkids? Neither attended an Ivy+ or even a “T20”.

The kids of these modern tiger parents will grow up, and allow their kids to apply to colleges where the kid wants to attend, allow their kids more of a choice in what they want to do with life, and not monitor their GPAs to make certain that the kid;s not getting any Bs.

I already know a bunch of children of Tiger parents who have kids of their own. While the kid is expected to attend a solid college, they get a choice of major, and aren’t expected to sacrifice their entire life just to be accepted to one of 20 colleges that the parents consider “Elite”.

So, I would expect that, as the kids of these tiger parents grow up and have their own kids. As the kids who post here hysterically “If I’m not accepted to Harvard or Yale, my parents will make my life even more of a hell than they are now” will have their own kids, and those kids will be allowed to study Geology, History, Literature, etc, and their parents will be fine of their kid attends A solid state school or a decent LAC.

I predict that, 20 years from now, either there will be a new group of immigrants clamoring at the gates of the Ivies, or things will relax quit a bit.

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Starter housing has in fact gotten really, really expensive in certain cities, even relative to market incomes. There are potential solutions but I understand why young people do not love the idea that cities that were comfortably affordable for their parents or grandparents are now too expensive for them.

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When parents are already high on whatever scale of status or success is being measured in their social circles (whether it is income / wealth, prestige of one’s occupation / profession, or prestige of the colleges they graduated from), any comparison to the parents or explicit or implied expectations to do better than the parents puts pressure on the kids, since there is little room to move “up” in status from the parents’ status, but plenty of room to move “down”.

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Never bet against the power of US culture to assimilate on the scale of generations!

Housing is 100 percent the biggest concern I have for my kids. I was able to have my own apartment and work a retail job (RIP, Borders) pretty easily - and now we basically expect that our kids will have to live with us after college because rents have gotten so high compared to wages - and we are a $15/hr min wage state and historically pretty affordable - we had a rush of remote workers decamp to our region for the cheap housing, and they have their remote/out of state wages to pay for it.
It used to be even without college, you could spread your wings by getting an apartment and a job, maybe a 2 bed you shared with a friend, but the numbers don’t work for that right now. We could not afford our house now and we are NOT in a place like NYC or Silicon Valley, just… MAINE! (and not a coastal/waterfront area!)

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Yes, a generation or few ago, the kid who moved out of the parents’ house at high school graduation may have been able to self-support with a high school graduate’s job, while needing only small student loans to work their way through college at an in-state public university (with very cheap tuition at the time). These days, being able to do that without parental support is much less common (and continuing to live in the parents’ house while commuting to college is a form of parental support).

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There’s sometimes a difference between upper middle class parents who went to T20s and don’t want their kids to be downwards mobile, and lower class parents (including immigrants) who are seeking something better for their kids then they were able to achieve.

Both of my parents always had a chip on their shoulder that they’d not been able to go to university. As a result they had very high expectations for their kids, and yes were sometimes braggy about it (like at my wedding when they said how exceptional and unique it was that both the groom and bride had a PhD, which was somewhat awkward since a high proportion of our friends also did).

And we’ve seen it amongst our generation too: we are friends with a couple who didn’t go to college and did try to live vicariously through their D’s college years, attending every campus and sorority event they could.

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There’s a big difference between surviving and flourishing. And, while it may be easy for some to advise their kids that “you’ll figure it out” that message may not fully address the legitimate concerns held by other kids.

I actually expect the anxiety of college graduates to rise over the nest few years as they discover that the employment landscape has shifted from what they expected. Couple that with many who are also in debt who now look at their degree and ask - why?

For better? Or for worse?