<p>Yup. The Iranians did it themselves, and virtually without arms. Overthrew what was then the government with the 3rd of 4th most powerful military in the world, backed by the most powerful military in the history of the world, with torturers trained at the largest torture school in the world, at Fort Benning.</p>
<p>And, they will do it again, to the Ayatollahs, when the time is right. Just like the East Germans took down the wall. There’s a certain inevitability to it all.</p>
<p>That’s why I believe that, as a general principle, the US should come down on the side of freedom and opportunity in its international relations.</p>
<p>Yes, Iran is a wonderful place to live. At least that was my take from “Reading Lolita in Tehran”, LOL–and my converstions with Tehranian friends.</p>
<p>Looking forward to the publication of Oriana Fallaci’s “The Force of Reason” in which she warns that Europe has become, in fact, Eurabia. As in centuries past, she believes Europe will return to historical muslim influences on the coat tails of Western complacency, Western PCness and the West’s abandonment of traditional Western values and religions.</p>
<p>our christian right is the equivalent of the islamic fundamentalists</p>
<p>What hubris! </p>
<p>It shows not only a lack of intellectual curiosity but a lack of respect to those in Iran who live, day in and day out, with actual repression. In Iran, there is hardly a person of political or intellectual substance who has not experienced, within their own circle of friends and family, a surreptitious arrest that comes in the night or on an empty street whereby an innocent is led away to be forgotten and tortured. </p>
<p>My cousin disappeared one day in Iran; it was later found out that she was in prison. She was tortured and had things done to her I will not repeat. She was 24 years old at the time. What repressions have you personally experienced or have you personal knowledge of to make such an outrageous comparison between the Christian Right and those who practice their ancient, evil and universal art to oppress the good people of Iran?</p>
<p>Please, think before you make these seemingly resentful and childish statements; such matters as these are beyond the churlish statements of any dilettante.</p>
<p>Yeah, thats comparable to Abu Ghraib, FountainSiren :)</p>
<p>And you know well what happened there !!</p>
<p>You’re comparing the treatment of military combatants engaged in a civil war (at best) with the rape, torture and execution of students and professors? And then, after all that, you post a smile?</p>
<p>I believe you make my point.</p>
<p>
Oh please! To compare what a few miscreants did at Abu Ghraib which amounted to nothing more than humiliation and for which they are being sent to prison to the state sponsored torture and murder of innocent civillians on a grand scale is beyond the pale.</p>
<p>“those who practice their ancient, evil and universal art to oppress the good people of Iran?”</p>
<p>Honestly, you don’t want to hear my stories of personal knowledge of those tortured under the Shah by Fort Benning-trained SAVAK under direct U.S. supervision. Makes Abu Ghraib look like child’s play.</p>
<p>
Well said. All who want an Iranian nuke, raise your hands.</p>
<p>“Their ability to enable terrorism has been greatly curtailed.”</p>
<p>Like the Saudi’s – the actual financiers and executors of 9/11?</p>
<p>Yep the Iranians did it themselves - replaced one authoritarian dictatorship with a totalitarian theocracy. Great feat. Tell us how did the B’hais fair in the new Iraq? And the women? </p>
<p>The Ayatollahs are worse than the Shah. Why is it that American liberals assume that anybody who hates America cannot be all bad? Probably because they have never had to live anywhere without an American passport in their pocket.</p>
<p>“Why is it that American liberals assume that anybody who hates America cannot be all bad?”</p>
<p>Straight from the right-wing propaganda playbook. Ascribe a false (and stupid) belief to “liberals” and then strike a pose of exasperated superiority. Typical Republican sound bite. I’m tired of it.</p>
<p>Oh I am sorry - I didn’t compare anybody to Hitler or call them a Nazi, the typical leftwing sound bite - tired, hateful, and dishonest as it is. </p>
<p>“No enemies on the Left” is not a phrase conservatives invented to describe Leftists. Rather it is the first standing order in the Left-wing playbook.</p>
<p>No, you just called an entire group of American’s guilty of using “tired, hateful and dishonest” comparisons - much better, I’m sure. </p>
<p>I <strong>am</strong> an American liberal. I don’t have the beliefs you freely ascribe to me and those of my philosphical pursuasion. I don’t engage in name-calling. I <strong>am</strong> tired of the cheap name calling you - you personally, Patuxent - engage in. How about you pump up your intellectual integrity level and engage in honest debate instead of repeating Limbaugh-esque cheap shots?</p>
<p>Patuxent:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>As Kluge implies, you guys need to start finding a better game than hypocritcal poses.</p>
<p>By the way, serious US torture has absolutely occurred and has led to the deaths of detainees from both Iraq and Afghanistan. It goes well beyond “humiliation,” FF.</p>
<p>I would suspect many people from many political points of view are deeply troubled by the now very lengthy detentions in Cuba with no charges filed, no attorneys, no communications with their families. I know I am. </p>
<p>When I was in HS I was in an Amnesty International group and we wrote many letters to repressive regimes asking about political prisoners who were being detained with no charges, no trials; people who just got grabbed off the street and were not heard from again. I shudder to think the US doing this. If after 3 years there is not enough to charge someone–? Come on.</p>
<p>I understand terrorism is a threat, but I do not think we support the best interest of America by behaving like the very human rights offenders we deplore, even if the degree/duration of our abuses are not identical to the worst of the international lot-- this is no excuse.</p>
<p>We are going to have a fight ahead of us to regain some of the civil rights we “temporarily” gave up via the Patriot Act. </p>
<p>Today is Independence Day-- and I do love my country. But I am increasingly feeling like some tough love is warranted. Friends don’t let friends drive drunk, and freedom-loving Americans should not let our government run roughshod over ANYONES human rights.</p>
<p>If this is how people nowadays think, it does not surprise me that we are where we are now.</p>
<p>I said typical kluge. I didn’t say every. And I still think that is a fair and accurate desprition. If it doesn’t fit you good but is this world we are often judged by the company we keep.</p>
<p>As for Limbaugh-esque I would have to take your word for it as you have obviously spent more time listening to him than I have. I believe I only saw him once some years back when he still had a TV show.</p>
<p>SBmom - the only problem here is that the folks in Gitmo are enemy combatants not criminals. Enemy combattants are generally held for the duration of the war. They do have a right to be treated humanely. But they don’t have a right to have a lawyer or have one appointed for them. That is the way it was in WWII and the Civil War and the Revolutionary War too for that matter. When the war is over they are repatriated and become their countries problem or if they have commited crimes then they are charged and tried. WWII began in 1939 and I think it is a pretty safe bet that there were Germans captured then and held to the end of the war and if the war had gone on another ten years they would have still been held.</p>
<p>TheDad - what did you do run Nazi and Republican through Lexus Nexus? If so you must have had a heck of a time filtering the results.</p>
<p>Seriously the rhetoric can get over-heated on all sides but it is the Democrats, frustrated no doubt that their God-given right to rule has been thoroughly thwarted by the voters who have been going over the deep-end with regularity of late. If you cannot see that then you are making Karl Rove’s day.</p>