Israeli troops launch raid deep into Lebanon

Parent Cafe
141

<p>“I hardly see how hardcore Islamism fits into the definition of ‘civilisation’. Terrorists are sub humans and should be dealth with as such. IMO, drop bombs on Tehran, Qom, Isfahan, Damascus to start off… Oh ya, a couple quotes by your civilised friends in Iran”</p>

<p>And people who rape 15 year old Iraqi girls, set them ON FIRE and kill their family are “civilized”? How about the ones who set a 9 year old girl in Vietnam on fire? How about the ones who sent (and continue to send) ARMS and WEAPONS and funding to places like RWANDA and SIERRA LEON where women and young children and terrorized and raped and destoryed by western backed militias? The people who committed the atrocities in Vietnam and continue to do so in Iraq and places in between are “civilized”? What about the people in Abu Ghraib? </p>

<p>The middle-east was and has been known as the cradle of civilization. So you can take YOUR “civilization” and shove it up your ___.</p>

142

<p>I am not used to keeping in touch with news…But tell me, have those rape charges been followed through? i.e., have the soldiers been convicted and sentenced? I didn’t realize that accused soldiers were ‘guilty until proven innocent’. Anyway, nice strawman. Why are we bringing US into this? Is this a war of US vs Lebanon, or Israel vs Lebanon? Yea, the Middle East was the cradle of civilisation. For the last fifteen hundred years it has been the cradle of barbarianism.</p>

<p>I am sure you fully support the terrorists who recently bombed the train in India. Your idea of civilised men, it seems like.</p>

143

<p>“The Israeli did not start this. The Arabs did…In a war, you don’t have the luxury of saving ‘innocents’. If you do, you lengthen the war (Iraq, for example), and you get your own people killed. The Arabs should realize that when it rains, you get wet…Calling Israel inhumane? How about condemning the hordes of suicide bombers? Out of touch with reality indeed.”</p>

<p>I have been bombed on. I have lived through war. Don’t ****ing tell me to live in reality when I have seen how people suffer. YOU are out of touch with reality. YOU devalue the life of humanity “luxury of saving innocents”. WHY did those children need to die? To save the lfie of 3 soldiers that COULD BE BETTER accomplished with diplomacy and small scale operations?</p>

<p>The first Israeli soldier that was captured, even his father didn’t support how Israel went in and destroyed:

</p>

<p>Israel DOES NOT and never wanted want to bring the soldiers back alive, all it wanted an <em>excuse</em> to unleash hell in an already fragile region. Hit PA and Lebanon, and commit some sort of international hostile take-over with sympathy from racist fools.</p>

144

<p>

Yea well, I would feel bad for you only if you didn’t make comments that support terrorism. I haven’t seen people suffer personally, but I assure you that the same mother</em></strong>*ering Islamic scumbags have terrorised my country before (As recently as my parents’ generation). I hold human life as precious, but not the lives of these sub humans. Diplomacy has never worked, and will never work. Sell diplomacy to the six million Jews that died in the Holocaust. Oh wait, that was just a myth, right?</p>

145

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<p>People had a word for this in the apartheid era… what was it? Oh yes. Racist scumbag. Anyone who makes a comment like that automatically goes in the area of sub-humans. Man, I didn’t know people like you existed anymore… But I guess that’s how Vietnam, Iraq, and todays murders in Lebanon are happening.</p>

<p>

Please don’t share your sympathy, I don’t need it.</p>

<h2>I was going to comment on your previous comment:</h2>

<p>

[quote]
I am not used to keeping in touch with news
[/quote>]
</p>

<p>I figured. </p>

<p><quote>But tell me, have those rape charges been followed through? i.e., have the soldiers been convicted and sentenced? I didn’t realize that accused soldiers were ‘guilty until proven innocent’. Anyway, nice strawman. Why are we bringing US into this? Is this a war of US vs Lebanon, or Israel vs Lebanon? Yea, the Middle East was the cradle of civilisation. For the last fifteen hundred years it has been the cradle of barbarianism.</quote></p>

<p>Hypocrisy runs amock.</p>

<h2>1. The charges in the Iraq case are proceeding (mainly because they were REPORTED by AMERICAN soldiers themselves) while there have NUMEROUS accounts of other similiar actions. Same with charges in Haifa, and several other locations where soldiers have been accused of commiting mass executions. Recall My Lai.</h2>

<p>But now it’s not even worth my time. <em>shakes head</em> Sub-human… haha… god! Didn’t the Nazis use the same term to bring about the Holocaust. No. you are no better than them, IN FACT you are worse because you have seen the suffering that words like that bring about and you STILL say it. Quite frankly, seeing what kind of pathetic and disgustingly racist people are supporting these actions, I believe it is all quite hopeless.</p>

146

<p>Well I certainly won’t waste too many keystrokes on the above guy. Lacking any facts or any points, he must resort to calling me names. Lets see, Nazi, apartheid, racist scumbag, etc…Oh ya, I am also very impressed that you resorted to comparing me to a Nazi (very original in an internet forum). CGM you should become pen pals with Paraiso. Quite your type of guy. Enough of this, I am going back to watching my game.</p>

147

<p>Unable to offer more unfactual and racist commentary? It was entertaining. No need to waste keystrokes though, I responded to the comments given, and drew factual parallels. But, really I shouldn’t respond to people who lack basic basic historical knowledge (Goebbels’ use of the term “sub-human”) and themselves admit not following news but merely pulling information out of their wherever. Sub-humans, Islamic scumbags, barbarianism, … ahaha</p>

148

<p>You know, I never walked out of church thinking, “you know, I wanna kill someone.”</p>

<p>I also know that Christianity and Islam believe in alot of the same things, and they both, along with Judeism, follow the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.</p>

<p>So then, why do these fundamentalists walk out of a mosque thinking, “I wanna kill someone”?</p>

149

<p>It is ironic that supporters of a state created, in part, to provide sanctuary for the victims of Nazi atrocities are now comfortable using the most vile and racist language (“sub-human”) to justify violence against Arabs and Palestinians. I suppose that since Israel and its supporters believe they have the high ground militarily, preserving the moral high ground is of no particular importance.</p>

150

<p>Well, that state hasn’t exactly provided sanctuary</p>

151

<p>“A similar missile sank an Egyptian boat, but its crew was rescued by a nearby commercial ship, the IDF said.”</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast...east/index.html[/url]”>http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast...east/index.html&lt;/a&gt;
A ways down.</p>

<p>Now their attacking Egypt? What will this mean?</p>

152

<p>Paraiso, thank you. Perspective is sorely lacking. Since 9/11, the term terrorism has become almost entirely subjective and used willy-nilly to justify all manner of atrocities. The devil is winning.</p>

153

<p>Meanwhile, if you’d rather light a candle rather than curse the darkness, may I suggest the following:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.theparentscircle.com/[/url]”>http://www.theparentscircle.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>My d. did a benefit concert for these folks (to bring representatives to our town) and they are very inspiring.</p>

154

<p>For a little background info for those interested. It is good to keep this in perspective and realize this is an ongoing conflict and has little to do with a few soldiers being taken captive…</p>

<p>"The intimate relationship between Iran and Hizballah has evolved since 2000, when Israel’s withdrawal from southern Lebanon freed the militant group to expand the scope of its activities in the region. U.S. officials believe Iran has looked increasingly to Hizballah as a tool to thwart the Israeli-Palestinian peace process by encouraging the group to lend operational support to Hamas and Islamic Jihad.</p>

<p>Syria’s troop withdrawal from Lebanon last year has also re-shaped Iran’s dealings with Hizballah, analysts here say. Before the Syrian withdrawal, Iran and Damascus competed for influence through their various Lebanese proxies, but now Iran is finding it to easier to funnel its support for Hizballah via Damascus. “Iran and Syria are now standing behind each other,” says Laylaz. “Their strategy is more unified.” Does this mean that Iran micro-manages Hizballah or vets its major operations? “Hizballah sees the need to confer with Iran,” says Atrianfar. “But it doesn’t necessarily do so over tactics.”</p>

<p>Back in the spring of 2002, when the moderate government of then President Mohammad Khatami sought to cozy up to the United States, Iran ordered Hizballah to call off its rocket attacks on Israel’s northern border. Iran’s then Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi flew to Beirut, and made an uncharacteristic public call for Hizballah to “exercise self-restraint.” Within days, the border went quiet. But with an agitator like Ahmadinejad at the helm, Iran is more likely to watch the conflict burn than help to put it out, all the while playing to the crowds in the streets."</p>

155

<p>I think all you have to do to get even greater perspective is take the above, and every time you see the word “Hezbollah”, put in Israel, and every time you see Iran, put in the U.S., and every time you see Ahmadinejad, put in the U.S. President of your choice. Remember: virtually every bomb dropped by Israel was made by the U.S., every plane made in the U.S., every rocket paid for by U.S. taxpayers, with operational support in their use supplied by the U.S.</p>

<p>Try it out with this sentence:</p>

<p>"Does this mean that Iran micro-manages Hizballah or vets its major operations? “Hizballah sees the need to confer with Iran,” says Atrianfar. “But it doesn’t necessarily do so over tactics.”</p>

<p>Meanwhile the Texas and Iranian oil barons - brothers under the skin - are rubbing their hands in glee.</p>

156

<p>Mini, sure the price of oil is going up, but do you think any of these oil men really want to be extracting oil in a war zone if they don’t have too? I’m sure they’d rather have to lay off their workers than loose them to war. </p>

<p>Yet you criticized Israel, when really, by definition, Hezbolla invaded israel. Sure, Nazi Germany just sent a few buzz bombs into London, so was Churchill overreacting when he sent bombers over Germany?</p>

157

<p>The problem with sending ‘rescue and retribution’ tanks into Lebanon instead of MOSAD was a matter of proportion. What will the response be to rockets launched into Haifa and Navy ships? Shivers.</p>

<p>Time Magazine supposes the display of muscle is precisely the point.</p>

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<p>I wonder if the conflict is merely that. I worry the impending escalation is the long-desired segue into Iran.</p>

158

<p>“Mini, sure the price of oil is going up, but do you think any of these oil men really want to be extracting oil in a war zone if they don’t have too? I’m sure they’d rather have to lay off their workers than loose them to war.”</p>

<p>Oil men make their living off brinkmanship - it is the nature of the beast. One out of 100 oil test drills work out, and it is like playing Roulette. I think they are absolutely DELIGHTED to make their money off war. Remember, the Texas oil men drill in the Gulf of Mexico, the Iranians in their own country, and their flow is just fine. As for loss of life? Pfff.</p>

<p>“Yet you criticized Israel, when really, by definition, Hezbolla invaded israel.”</p>

<p>By definition, everyone invaded everyone else. Hezbollah captured a couple of enemy soldiers, much as Israel has gone into Gaza and captured a couple of thousand of enemy soldiers. Call it an invasion if that makes you feel better. Israel targets civilian targets; Hezbollah targets civilian targets. Tit for Tat, and it’s ridiculous to try to figure out which is which - I’m sure the Israelis don’t spend any time at that silly game, and neither do the Palestinians nor Hezbollah. Texans and Saudis and Iranians get rich regardless. Loss of life? Pfff.</p>

<p>Israel wants Lebanon to get rid of Hezbollah. That’s like Lebanon saying Israel should get rid of Likud, or the U.S. should get rid of Democrats. (maybe they should. ;)) They are the largest minority party in a democratically elected Parliament. Why do they get elected? For the same reasons Hamas gets democratically elected in Palestine, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Ahmenijadad in Iran. None of them would ever be my choice. Democracy in action. Something makes folks vote the way they do, and the catastrophic U.S. occupation of Iraq isn’t helping matters.</p>

<p>"Sure, Nazi Germany just sent a few buzz bombs into London, so was Churchill overreacting when he sent bombers over Germany?'</p>

<p>What does that have to do with the price of oil? And which party is Germany and which Churchill? Probably depends on where you sit, and which propaganda medium you are subjected to. If you think the analogy is sound (I don’t believe you do, but if you do), I guess the only proper response, from Israel’s point of view, is to nuke 'em. (Then watch the price of oil - I can see Bush’s friends and Ahmenijadad’s friends - good friends all - rubbing their hands in glee.)</p>

<p>"Does this mean that the U.S. micro-manages Israel or vets its major operations? “Israel sees the need to confer with the U.S.,” says Smith-Jones. “But it doesn’t necessarily do so over tactics.”</p>

<p>I expect the strike on the pediatric hospital to come shortly. But cutting off the electricity does the job equally well.</p>

159

<p>Mini, did you read Thomas Friedman’s article last week on the democratic elections of Hamas? It elucidated some interesting issues about the responsibility of elected governments. Or are private militias, “military wings”, that are basically out of government control, OK in these countries, because we like to pretend they are “democracies”?</p>

<p>Here’s a bit of Friedman:</p>

<p>"What we are seeing in Iraq, the Palestinian territories and Lebanon is an effort by Islamist parties to use elections to pursue their long-term aim of Islamizing the Arab-Muslim world. This is not a conflict about Palestinian or Lebanese prisoners in Israel. This is a power struggle within Lebanon, Palestine and Iraq over who will call the shots in their newly elected “democratic’’ governments and whether they will be real democracies.</p>

<p>The tiny militant wing of Hamas today is pulling all the strings of Palestinian politics, the Iranian-backed Hezbollah Shiite Islamic party is doing the same in Lebanon, even though it is a small minority in the cabinet, and so, too, are the Iranian-backed Shiite parties and militias in Iraq. They are not only showing who is boss inside each new democracy, but they are also competing with one another for regional influence.</p>

<p>As a result, the post-9/11 democracy experiment in the Arab-Muslim world is being hijacked. Yes, basically free and fair elections were held in Lebanon, the Palestinian territories and Iraq. Yes, millions turned out to vote because the people of the Arab-Muslim world really do want to shape their own futures.</p>

<p>But the roots of democracy are so shallow in these places and the moderate majorities so weak and intimidated that we are getting the worst of all worlds. We are getting Islamist parties who are elected to power, but who insist on maintaining their own private militias and refuse to assume all the responsibilities of a sovereign government. They refuse to let their governments have control over all weapons. They refuse to be accountable to international law (the Lebanese-Israeli border was ratified by the U.N.), and they refuse to submit to the principle that one party in the cabinet cannot drag a whole country into war.</p>

<p>“Iraq, Lebanon and the Palestinians all held democratic elections,’’ said the Israeli political theorist Yaron Ezrahi, “and the Western expectation was that these elections would produce legitimate governments that had the power to control violence and would assume the burden of responsibility of governing. … But what happened in all three places is that we [produced] governments which are sovereign only on paper, but not over a territory.’’</p>

<p>There’s more, but that’s the gist. It’s Times Select, so the link is useless.</p>

160

<p>I did read the article. And it’s reasonable, except…</p>

<p>Except, compared with the differences among parties and orientations in all the countries named, it seems to me that it is democracy in the U.S. that is very shallow. Stable, of course (and of which I am grateful), but shallow. The differences among the two parties, when it comes to major things are relatively slight, especially compared with those to be found among the parties in the Arab world and Iran, or even in Israel. </p>

<p>Friedman uses very fancy language to say that he believes “democracy in the Arab-Muslim” world is hijacked because he doesn’t happen to like the results. Knowing that I would not personally have made similar choices, I happen to feel the same way about the U.S., and I think with greater cause. But I don’t need to make excuses - if Republocratic politics are your thing, and you can pre-determine the outcome, you will have a more stable situation (which, of course, I approve of), but not necessarily a more democratic one. </p>

<p>What’s telling to me is that Friedman, for all his philosophizing about democratic values, could only produce a quote from a rightwing Israeli political theorist to support his main contention.</p>