Tangent to the discussion here: Just curious, in what (first) class does MS student study kidneys? Physiology? (DS said he would like to pay more attention to physiology class, as it has more to do with MS2 classes as well as STEP-1. So he spent much more time on it even if there is no grade on it – and on any other preclinical classes, at his med school.)</p>
<p>DS had several passing (i.e., not directly by himself) encounter with kidneys: One of his friends did research related kidneys as an UG. Boy, it was intense. For a year or so, he likely invest 50 hours a week in the lab (both during summer or during regular fall/spring semester.)</p>
<p>In MS1, one choice for his paid research (starting this summer, I heard the annual pay is around 30K if full time. Of course, he will likely be full time in summer only as he does not have an “appetite” for MD/PhD-like route) is to join the group which researches the kidneys. It requires a commitment of more than a year. In the end, he dared not join, likely due to his friend’s experience previously. It is also because he is not sure whether he would spend so much time on a particular subject before he knows which specialty he may be interested in (likely some specialty areas related to IM though, as I heard.) This would be the price to pay if you join a “high power” research group at a research university!</p>
<p>On a flight back home during some break, while he was studying kidneys, one passenger sitting across the aisle got up his seat and saw
DS studying this subject. He said “Kidneys, interesting.” It turns out he is a professor at his MS. They had a couple of chat about this subject. He learned a thing or two from this professor on the same flight during the flight!</p>
<p>It’s not like I did absolutely terrible…I was offered a position with the chemistry department as a lab assistant and a research scholar. I had AP credit for the first semester of chemistry and received a B+ for the second semester. Honestly, the material was not too bad, it was just the rigor. In addition to lecture exams we were given individual research projects which required weekly 10-page scientific papers in addition to a 45-minute presentation of our results at the end of the semester. Our exams weren’t too bad, but the exams were structured so you did not have time to think, just to do. No one ever finished an exam before the professor called time. It was always too lengthy for the time given. </p>
<p>For one of my biology lab practicals, at 7:30AM we were given about 150 slides of fecal smears, blood samples, etc., and expected to name the phylum, subphylum, class, subclass, genus, species, common name, and medical disorder caused by the protist/parasite. We only had fifteen seconds per slide/microscope. Most of the time I was writing down the answer before I could even say it in my mind and that wasn’t even fast enough. That’s what makes the class difficult. In my biology course, the professor said on the first day that his course was on the level of medical school in difficulty and I don’t think he was lying. The average grade at the end of the semester was a 64. I finished that course, miraculously, with a solid B. </p>
<p>What makes me upset is that medical schools won’t see I was in the top 1% of the class, they’ll just see I got a B.</p>
OP, This could help you even on MCAT test! This is arguably the benefit of going to a rigorous school. Not all is lost.</p>
<p>When DS was in senior year and was in a research lab (which was needed for getting a BS), the postdocs or PI threw him ton of difficult papers to read (as he was expected to discuss the contents with him, say, the next day.) It appears to help him on his MCAT, considering the fact that he had prepared for the MCAT almost an year ago and did not have much time to prepare for the test again before the real test.</p>
<p>Even now in MS1 now, he was expected to study many papers that have nothing to do with his final right before the final, because of his upcoming research in summer. The PI just expected him to complete the reading/studying of the papers and write up something.</p>
<p>The grass is always greener, all the public school kids freak out about how school name plays a role. Let me give you a health dose of truth. You gotta play the cards that you are dealt. There isn’t much use in complaining about your hand, because there is little that you can do to change it in most cases. Not everyone can have a handful of aces. In fact, very few do. The vast majority who succeed are playing decently good hands with skill and determination.</p>
<p>And there are plenty of people who will think the fact that your race will be a boost is unfair. As was said, do your best and stop worrying about everyone else.</p>
<p>Fwiw, despite all the talk that school doesn’t matter, very, very, very few kids in my class are not from top 20 unis or top 5 liberal arts</p>
<p>^and, if I remember correctly, i<em>wanna</em>be_brown goes to a top med school. For a comparison, I do not go to a top med school (I “just” go to my state’s med school), and there are very few kids in my class who went to a top 20 or a top 5 liberal arts. Certainly <15%. So even if name does give you a boost to some schools (perhaps even all schools), it’s not true that you must go to an elite undergrad in order to go to any med school.</p>
<p>I go to a top school and 60 schools are represented. So, by default at least 30% of the class is not in the top 20, and it is more like 50/50. Considering that several top 20 schools push 1000 applicants to med school a year, It doesn’t shock me.</p>
<p>yes, just to be clear, I was by no means trying to say that a top school is necessary, just trying to assuage the fears that it literally means nothing.</p>
<p>^yeah, that’s what I figured. Just thought I’d chime in that there are med schools out there for those who don’t go the top school for UG route!</p>
<p>and holy cow, 1000+ applicants? My school had nowhere near that!</p>
<p>WHS12…first, let me say that not all state schools are as easy as you might think – they’re not all created equal (nor are all privates for that matter). My D attends a public U that’s in the top 25, and I’d be willing to bank the rigor in her program is every bit as challenging and competitive as yours. </p>
<p>A couple of days ago I brought her to a different state where she is taking part in a summer research program that is extremely competitive (2% accepted). We went out for dinner tonight before I head back to our home state, and she told me all about the students in the program (14). She said there were 3 kids who attended top 25 schools and 1 who attends a top LAC. 10 students attend state Us or lesser-known privates. I share this news to confirm what others have said time and again on CC – the brightest students don’t always choose to attend top 25 schools. Many recognize the expense of med school and decide to save their money. Many simply can’t afford a pricey ivy ed. Your school does not define you…you do. These kids have done so many great things both in school and out of school which have made them worthy of this honor. Please do not assume they’re intellectually inferior to you or that their school programs aren’t as rigorous. FWIW, like UG admissions, standardized tests are often one of the “leveling” devices. A kid who works hard in a super rigorous, well-taught UG program will most likely do better on the MCAT than a student who has perfect grades at a school where the standards aren’t high.</p>
<p>mcat2,
in regard to your question about kidneys, D’s blocks have focus on different systems. Her last block was heart/lungs/kidneys. She definitely did not like heart/lungs, but loved kidneys. She said that it was opposite of almost everybody around her. She thinks that she feels this way because of more math and Chem. in studying kidneys, while there is more physics in studying heart/lungs. This block was the hardest so far, but she mentioned that neuro block in second year is also considered to be very hard. I do not know much about classes…, they will have 2 blocks in second year, the short one as their 3rd year starts in March.
No research for my D. in first year. She will do something else in her summer, grants could be obtained only for 6 or 8 weeks (not sure), she will not have 6 weeks together. She will relax for a month,…they deserve it. Research is built in her program, she might not have a chance to do additional research. While she does not mind research, she prefers clinical experiences much more, she loves to deal with people.</p>
<p>I’m not saying they are intellectually inferior, but I’ve taken courses at “top public schools” in my state and from what I’ve seen, there is a substantial difference in rigor (maybe it doesn’t apply to all schools, but at least in my state that fact is true). In high school, I took 32 semester hours of credit (27 from a state school, and 5 from a community college) and maintained a 4.0. Maybe your son/daughter attended an exception, but that’s not the same situation here. </p>
<p>Also, prestigious private schools are generally substantially cheaper than state public schools. Since top schools have very large endowments, they are generally very generous with financial aid. I go here for practically free. If I would have attended a state school, I would have been paying about $12,000 (the other $6,000 covered by loans) a year compared to only $4,000 at my current university. When I graduate college, I will have less than $5,000 in loans to pay back. Wouldn’t be the same situation if I would have attended a public school. So I really don’t understand how someone could possibly turn down an ivy for “cost”.</p>
<p>According to the below article, the average University of Michigan graduate owed, on average, more than $27,000, compared to only $5,000 for the average Princeton University graduate. </p>
<p>"Also, prestigious private schools are generally substantially cheaper than state public schools. "
-May not be the case for very top caliber students. The student who would be accepted to at leats several Ivy / Elite, (I am talking about valedictorians from private prep. HSs, ranked at the top of their class), will find few State Publics that will offer full ride/full tuition Merit awards. Yes, some of them will find the same at Elite colleges but they are more likely to find this type of offer at State Publics that are trying to catch their share of “big fish”, and believe me, they are successful at that, especially when you are talking about financially sensitive pre-med crowd who know that price of their education is very very high and the chance of getting Merit awards at Med. School even for Summa Cum Laude is very slim, close to none. So it is very wise to minimize the cost of UG in this case.</p>
<p>Yeah, but they would still receive a very affordable offer from a top 20. For instance, if I were to receive a full tuition scholarship from University of Michigan, I’d still attend my current school (financially speaking), because with grants, I have more than full tuition covered. In addition, I don’t have to maintain a ridiculously high GPA or a certain amount of credit hours each semester to keep my financial aid. Since I’m two years ahead of my age group, it’d be nice to take a slow semester or two without worrying about maintaining fifteen semester hours.</p>
Well, it really depends on how a family’s EFC is calculated on Profile. For many folks with a low or zero EFC the best-endowed schools can and often will be cheaper. For the high or even mid-EFC folks, not so much.</p>
<p>"So I really don’t understand how someone could possibly turn down an ivy for “cost”.
-I can tell you that not only “turn down an ivy for “cost””, but not even apply, so you do not need to turn it down. More so, even considering various Med. Schools, the applicant choice is NOT always the highest ranked either, not always top 20 and not always for “cost”, there are other considerations also. Frankly, considering Ivy for UG, the cost is not always the reason either, there are other reasons considered by applicants. My own D. did not apply at any top 20 UG’s, did not apply probably to any top 50 after graduating at the top of her private prep. HS, we do not know since we did not check rankings. She had her own criteria and she applied only to schools that met these criteria. It just happened in her case that the school that she decided to attend offerred full tuition Merit that kept going up. Frankly, we could have paid and would not be considered for need based at any place, but why if she could have it for free? Looking back it was a perfect place for her, the one that she still loves to visit, did it many times during her first year of Med. School. And again, she did not choose her highest ranked Med. School either, she actually has chosen the most expansive one, but not the highest ranked. I had to do a lot of convincing in connection to diregarding the price tag at this point, she was going for the cheap(er) one originally, then she swithced to the higher ranked, but change her mind after more research and more visiting.
I am not sure if it is easier or harder at different places, how anybody knows as most places have so many variations of first Chem. class at the same UG (as an example). The one for Engineers is usually the hardest one.<br>
The best is to choose your best and not listen to anybody. If it is Ivy or highest ranked, so be it, if it is not, who should care, more spots are left at Ivy’s for the next in line. So, be happy in either case.</p>
<p>For top students, what schools they would go to is sometimes decided by how much income/asset their parents have.</p>
<p>If their parents have very low or very high EFC, it may be very justifiable to attend the very top college. It is only when the parents’ income and assets are in the middle, these students may not choose to attend a top college due to financial reasons.</p>
<p>For a premed, if his parents’ “financial caliber” is on the lower side (thus having a very low EFC), the saving for going to a public college instead of a top college is not very much. Comparing to the overall cost of attending a med school, the difference between going to a top college (few of these colleges are generous though) or a public college could be minuscule.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I think MiamiDAP’s D has her point by always going to a school that is not far away from where she wants be be in the future. One reason is that being a practicing doctor requires some establishment of local connections in the end. The sooner you starts the process, it may be better. (Just thinking of this: if a future politician chooses to go OOS for an elite college instead of attending a well known public university in his state, it may be more difficult for him to get votes from many people in the future when he wants to be voted into the office in the local government. Well too many people hate elitism, and well too many people are more likely to vote for somebody who attended the same public school they went to.)</p>
<p>You are assuming that students qualify for finaid. Realize that there is a clear relationship between academic success and family income. Many top students don’t get finaid from the schools because they come from upper middle class families.
Just because your family can afford to pay full sticker based on arbitrary finaid cut offs doesn’t mean that you want them to.</p>