@gallentjill : I am not talking about comparatively/a curve or anything. I guess my point of view is coming from the idea that I think the difficulty of certain base level courses (not even the honors and the ones that host the “brightest minds”…I do not equate the “best test takers” to “the brightest minds” and you may choose to disagree with me on that) is often overblown especially on this forum where you hear students complaining about fairly standard level general chemistry courses that are honestly not be so much harder than a decently competitive state school. I’m just saying that I don’t think even those who test well should be afraid or feel uncomfortable with college classes not feeling like high school and being ultra predictable. I think being challenged/that tiny bit of doubt that you may not make an A is a part of a quality education. I am not advocating for everyone to engage the extremes so much as work with the talent they have and try to enhance it some. I think a lot of the complaints and anxiousness described do come from more than just the “competition” and instead from the fact that they have to stretch their thinking or efforts a little more than they anticipated. Usually when students feel things come too easy, they are being exposed to stuff/scenarios they already know or tasks that are not complex at all. To me, that just isn’t an education. What I do advocate for is honors programs, because many have the base rigor of elites or better and also teach analogous courses in a format that is better for learning and conducive to a better performance.
@NASA2014 : I TAed and graded at GSU, and can tell you that despite me conceding that courses were pitched differently than most elites (though some were quite alright), they did fail folks in a heartbeat. Even if it were “deserved” I suspect that even at schools with “tougher grading” (some professors that still curve to C+/B-, B-, or low B), they would catch hell if the C- range % expanded. Usually in cases where they write simpler exams/assignments (yields 75-85 mean), they design tests that cluster grades heavily around those areas, and in the case of hard assignments/low raw scores, seems the C range is kind of “relaxed” in STEM courses that are service courses for say, pre-healths because they can’t use a C- and will have to repeat the course. If you get a D (or maybe even C-) or an F in a class where exams had medians in high 50s or 60s, then you likely scored an average in the 30s-or lower.
@Much2learn : “That is probably true, but I grading varies a lot by school and subject. I know that at Lehigh, an excellent school but perhaps not elite by cc: standards, orgo was curved to a C+ this year. That is pretty strict grading for a school with a middle 50 percent ACT of 30 - 33.”
I would consider Lehigh elite academically despite not being super duper prestigious (most “elite” schools are not there yet either)
Either way, keep in mind that a C+ is anything between 2.3 and 2.69 for final course GPA. Even among instructors who claim to curve to B-, this sometimes happens. However, instructors do get lots of freedom often within certain bounds). And the thing is, even when the mean is C+/B-, the curve can be done to ensure not many people earn below a solid C. Usually instructors are not doing true bell-curves so much as “adjustments” )which are some sort of curve but obviously not a perfect bell curve) to there whim (though often those using the C+/B- or a B- or B curve/recentering are doing so because of departmental recommendations for core courses) as described in the document below:
https://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/file/d/1NvGLwn4JTY9ThN08tgovs4n4Hs7wu950/view?usp=sharing
My old professor that I mentioned has had terrible years where his ochem averages were more like 2.4-2.6, and then good years where it is 2.7-3.0. He just lets the quality of the students control it and will not water it down, give more bonus points, or adjust his scale. In some years (the low ones), there were more Ds and Fs than normal (in some cases it was because A grades were scarce) and sometimes he has gotten calls from the Dean (perhaps because his sections are smaller, so if you have 55-60 students, and that year, 10 get D/F, you get plenty of complaints), but still does not change the grades. Technically just doing a statistical adjustment plus some “tricks” could just avoid this, but he just gives them whatever they get versus his scale.