<p>My D may be in a similar position soon and I always worry in advance to get it out to the way. </p>
<p>My generalized advice to her was: “If given an offer that isn’t acceptable up front, immediately counter with what you would like, be it another two weeks to decide or $4K in salary, and asking that if they can’t meet your criteria to give you to please let you know and to please give you five days (or whatever) to give them an answer, all while letting them know that this job is where you want to be, doing what you want to do.” </p>
<p>There are some asymmetries in her potential situation: this job would be one of the top 2-3 she could reasonably get, given her aims & ambitions, but the outfit in question, while extremely picky, is worried she might take a better paying job, of which there are probably several they she could snag offers for. She’ll trade some dollars for fit but not an infinite amount.</p>
<p>TheDad, good strategy! Put the ball back in their court.</p>
<p>It never hurts to ask for something when the offer is already in your hand. If a company makes you an offer, it means they have spent time and money on screening multiple candidates and made their top choice. If they are serious about the offer (and they are), they can give you an extra week or two to decide, but longer than that would be an indicator that you were not serious about them. Some companies have policies “First offer, best offer”, while some are open to negotiations. Nobody will pull the offer because you’ve asked for something. If they do, that is a sign that they operate a “meatginder”, and it is not the place you want to be anyways.</p>
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<p>Google can be decieving Biotech, unlike Big Pharma, does not employ too many people. There are only a few companies with more than a thousand employees in this field - Amgen and Genentech, to name a chosen few. Those are mature profitable biotech companies that have been around a while. Vast majority of biotech companies falls into the category of “50 employees or fewer”, no products on the market, and if a company has funds to run its operations for 2 years, it means infinite job stability. Biotech is very highly clustered, predominantly on the West and East coasts, around major research institutions, since many of the companies originated from ideas generated by researchers at those institutions. California and New Jersey are considered biotech “hotbeds”. </p>
<p>Because biotech employment in each “cluster” is very limited and people generally do not like to move around the country chasing jobs, biotechies tend to get “recycled” within each “cluster”. So chances are I could know someone who knows someone who worked with someone else who is currently looking for, let’s say, an analytical chemist. While HR are busy checking the official references provided by the candidate, his/her potential future labmates are feverishly doing their own background checks through their networking grapevine. What if the candidate is a total jerk who steals other folks’ glassware, messes up the lab and interrupts everyone during meetings? It could be a huge deal in a small company. So I might get a call from someone who knows someone who knew me from ages ago and who knows I used to work with that candidate… You get the picture. That’s why people tend to “play nice”, wrap up their projects before switching jobs, give courtesy 2 week notices, and never burn their biotech bridges.</p>
<p>My big congratulations to everyone’s kids on landing their first jobs!</p>
Well, my parents’ law office has pulled offers for similar reasons, I believe–if they haven’t, they would definitely be willing to and have definitely talked about it. I highly doubt they operate a “meatgrinder” environment, but they do like to hire people who have them as their first choice. They’re not looking to hire people who are going to keep their eyes open for better opportunities from the get-go; instead, they’re searching for people who will want to stay with the firm long-term. So, I can see how a request for more time to compare other offers or a request for more money could be seen as signs that the individual may not be the best fit. It obviously depends on the field and on the particular company: I’m sure it’s expected for people to compare opportunities at JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley, but then again, the entry-level employees seem pretty exchangeable and aren’t expected to stay more than a couple of years with the company. Anyway, I’d argue that it depends on the particular circumstance, and not every company that would pull an offer (or seriously threaten to) necessarily operates a “meatgrinder” atmosphere.</p>
<p>BB: I negotiate as part of making my living. The idea is to get as much as you can of what you want without ****ing off the other side. I truly believe in win-win situations most of the time. Also, don’t try to get every last nickle on the table; there will come a time, you don’t know when and what about, when you will want an accommodation from the other side…easier done if you haven’t been a thorough hardass.</p>
<p>Co, on questions of beginning salary, I think it’s important to do homework on what the market is for your skills and to gauge where in that market will make you happy or at least content. $$$ is probably D’s least consideration about the job except that she can’t afford to ignore it because she has loans to pay back and grad school to save for. In her situation, there’s some real money at stake, working for possibly $30K-$40K less than she could get at, say, Goldman-Sachs. In fact, when she was invited to apply for this position, the original contact used phrasing along the lines of “…working for us if you can pass up obscene amounts of money from Goldman-Sachs.” </p>
<p>I’ve already told her that they’re not likely to pay her $10K more than their initial offer but that $4K is within presumed budget bounds. I’ve also told her that at $X or above, declare victory and take it, don’t even call to ask.</p>
<p>Informing all my views on this is that young women need to be taught to negotiate more. As a group, they tend to be more compliant, less aggressive than young men. And I share FF’s view that initial choices are important because the ripples can run a long way.</p>
<p>Bunsen Burner, thanks for the explanation and ideas. </p>
<p>Corranged, do you read the blog Anonymous Lawyer? With your background, you should. It is almost as funny as the Onion</p>
<p>The Dad, I read male new grads are as hesitant as females, to negotiate. It is a scary thing. Again, they are lucky to have us great parents to make sure they do the correct thing!</p>
<p>TheDad, you are a good negotiator. You should be thinking about writing a book for first-time job seekers! :)</p>
<p>I completely agree that $$$ are important, but other “soft” factors should be considered as well when negotiating an offer. Is there a career growth ladder in place, is there anything to compensate for low starting salary (eg, stock options), are the hours flexible, are there any benefits that the others do not offer? It may not be a good idea to ask some of these questions during interviews, but all of this can be investigated while you have a job offer in hand. I’m a true believe in “sleeping on it”.</p>
<p>“And I share FF’s view that initial choices are important because the ripples can run a long way.”</p>
<p>Nobody knows which way the ripples are going to go when our kids choose one job over another. We, as parents, probably should just relax. If our kids find work they like to do and get paid enough to live independently, time to be happy. </p>
<p>If, after looking at the pros and cons, if the decision looks like a toss-up, might as well take the job that pays more money. :)</p>
<p>Dstark, as I listen to all the discussions occurring about AMT and COLI and read about school and Proposition this and that, and deductible this and that, I can hardly keep it straight. How do the kids?</p>
<p>Both of my kids have already “moved on” from their first jobs. My son found the work fascinating… but the location didn’t meet his needs. No “people my age with IQs over 80” was his precise phrase. My daughter described her job as “soul-sucking.” (She was working for our company.)</p>
<p>I would point out that in my limited experience, co-workers seem to be what makes or breaks a job for the new college graduate. A fascinating job in a small company where most of the employees are married and over 30 just doesn’t seem to be enough. </p>
<p>Intriguingly, even while hating their first jobs, both kids were influenced by the prevailing culture of the community they were immersed in. My daughter took up cycling to work; my son took up target shooting.</p>
<p>Good info dmd77. I know several who graduated last year who left before the summer was over.</p>
<p>Did your kids leave from jobs in Seattle? That is where all the kids we know are flocking to, or wanting to. Nobody understands my objections to rain and clouds.</p>
<p>“as I listen to all the discussions occurring about AMT and COLI and read about school and Proposition this and that, and deductible this and that, I can hardly keep it straight. How do the kids”</p>
<p>The kids ignore this stuff. As they should. :)</p>
<p>My daughter LOVES Portland (Oregon) and plans to go on working there (once she gets back from her trip to Europe, so that wasn’t the problem; my son really hated the small rural Washington town (currently under lots of mud) where he was working and is currently consulting (for very little money) in Boston, simply because he loves the intellectual climate. He is looking at San Francisco, Portland, and Seattle for long-term jobs. </p>
<p>Seattle (where I’m located) may have lots of rain and clouds, but also has very clean air, lots of outdoor activities, more book readers than any other major city (maybe because it rains sometimes), and very little sub-freezing weather. I moved here from New England 15 years ago and would not go back.</p>
<p>The situation that DMD mentions regarding her son is what I am talking about concerning the potential ramifications of taking a first-time job that may not meet all of your needs. The pay may be great. The job may be great. But, if the environs don’t meet your needs, you may find yourself in a sticky situation. Suppose DMD’s son had met a girl in this town who was professionally, socially and psychologically tied to this town. Now the move to another part of the country is fraught with very complicating and potentially painful decisions and/or compromises.</p>
<p>fundingfather, our kids are in their early twenties. They will be ok. The kids generation is going to be very transient. Society is a little different now compared to when we grew up. </p>
<p>We can’t protect the kids from pain, disappointments, compromises and failures. They are human. </p>
<p>If the kids end up in jobs that aren’t perfect, so what? Many of us started in jobs that weren’t perfect. My job isn’t perfect now (and I work for myself). My boss can be such an @@@. If you know of a perfect job, tell me. The kids make the best decisions they can and they learn from those decisions. Who is to know whether Boston or Washington DC is the better move? We can’t predict the future. For all we know your kid may end up in SF someday. That would be a great move. :)</p>
<p>My first job was after college was working in the administration of the Unemployment Office for the state of Wis. I lasted 18 long months and left for California to work for a small city as a planner. That lead to my interest in commercial real estate and I have been happily employed ever since.</p>
<p>Barrons, you make my point. Everything seems so important at the time. Then boom. A totally different field and a fulfilling career. </p>
<p>I’m not saying I’m not concerned. I’m very curious to see where my daughter ends up. Besides wanting her to be self supporting and living in the area, I know most of my concerns don’t have anything to do with her and have everything to do with me. She will be fine. She enjoys life now and she will enjoy where life takes her.</p>
<p>Yes, of course they will be OK. Like I said it’s not life and death. However, of the three primary attributes of a job: work, salary, and location, the easiest things to change in the future are work and salary. Location may end up to be a permanent thing unless one is committed to a single lifestyle.</p>
<p>Yes, as we have discussed the period around 72-74 when I got into the workforce after college was not great. The one group busy hiring was the Dept. of Employment Security. I had one other offer with Westinghouse in the little nowhere town of Sharon, PA. Stay in Madison and work or move to Sharon for about the same $$$. That was not a tough one at the time. I certainly have done my share of moving around since then. But being single most of the time it was fun to live different places like LA, Austin, Chicago, Atlanta, and Seattle.</p>
Biotech, unlike Big Pharma, does not employ too many people. There are only a few companies with more than a thousand employees in this field - Amgen and Genentech, to name a chosen few. Those are mature profitable biotech companies that have been around a while. Vast majority of biotech companies falls into the category of “50 employees or fewer”, no products on the market, and if a company has funds to run its operations for 2 years, it means infinite job stability.