Johns Hopkins University student kills intruder with sword

starbright · September 16, 2009, 12:04am

I just find this sad all around. I know no one will agree with me but for that reason I need to share my lone opinion.

First let me say I feel terrible for this student and I hope he recovers from this terrible experience. I don’t judge him for what he did if it is as it sounds. He did what he had to do.

I don’t get however is the cheering on this thread about the buglar’s death: “serves him right!” or “he deserves it!” What’s with this fundamental belief that because someone comes on your property he deserves to be killed. Seems extreme to me. I don’t believe in the death penalty for a B&E.

The vast majority of such folks are not killers or murderers. Most are simply drug addicts needing fast cash-- they have interest in your stuff, not involving themselves in murder.

If someone breaks into my garage, I call 911. Who knows what is actually out there or what might ensue. You are entitled to approach and defend, but it seems a lot more sane and safe to call 911.

soccerguy315 · September 16, 2009, 12:12am

what do you do while he is in the garage, after you have called the police and before they get there? hide in the closet and hope he doesn’t come in? try to run away? what if there is a 2nd person watching the house who chases you down? what if they come into the closet with a weapon and you are just sitting there?

pugmadkate · September 16, 2009, 12:45am

You wait, with your doors locked. This story could have easily ended with the student being shot while he approached the garage.

Would you really rather die, or have your child die, than let someone who stole electronics get away with it?

That’s the part of the this thread that is surprising me. I would be shocked and angry if my child followed a suspected criminal after he called the police, more so if he cornered him in another building. This kid had a sword. He would have been more safe staying inside his home. And there would not be the issue of investigating what happened because, as has been said, the police cannot just go on one person’s version of a death.

The whole thing is terribly sad, all the way around. I cannot cheer on any of it.

starbright · September 16, 2009, 12:47am

It would depend on so many factors- am I alone or with my kids? Do I have a front door I can run out of and is a house nearby? Who else is out there? What time is it? Do I have a cell phone? And on and on.

But yes, I think if I couldn’t run out the front door safely, I’d probably hide and barricade myself with a phone and my best weapon. I’d also make a LOT of noise that I was home (so they don’t want to inadvertently come in thinking no one will be there). The last thing I want is a confrontation. Stereos and jewelry and honor are trivial compared to injuries or ones’ life. I wouldn’t go looking for someone. Especially if there might be two of them as you suggest!

I know our police advise kids alone to respond to someone at the door. Keep it locked, indicate parents are home but not available. To ignore someone is more likely to invite them in-- they want to steal, they don’t want to run into the occupants.

That isn’t meant to blame the student here at all. Who knows what any of us would really do in a panic and just a few minutes to think.

And keep in mind, maybe I’ve just been living in Canada too long. We actually have a very high B&E rate in our city (due to drug addiction), so we see them more as pathetic nuisance and part of a larger societal problem, than as people out to get us. Most of us would still never lock our doors during the day when we are home, and we don’t own personal handguns. Just a different mindset.

Northstarmom · September 16, 2009, 12:56am

"
If someone breaks into my garage, I call 911. Who knows what is actually out there or what might ensue. You are entitled to approach and defend, but it seems a lot more sane and safe to call 911."

I agree. I think that it’s bad judgment to go to try to hunt down the intruder. Far better to quietly call the cops and then hide. Earlier this year, a teen girl who was home alone while sick did exactly this when an intruder broke into her home. The cops came and arrested the intruder, who had never realized the girl was in the house.

Going out to confront the intruder – even if you have a weapon - -may cause you to be killed or otherwise injured. For instance, the intruder could hear you opening the door and then shoot through the door, killing you. An intruder who may have come “just” to rob you may – if they see you – decide to rape or kill you in order not to leave any witnesses.

Icarus · September 16, 2009, 1:03am

Thats not why he deserved what he got. He deserved it because after being caught in the act of forceful entry into someone else’s home and ordered to leave, he then actually attacked the lawful resident (who he must have known had a several foot long sword in his hands). At this point, the student was perfectly justified in defending himself by whatever means he had available. In this case, his defense resulted in the death of the burglar.

starbright · September 16, 2009, 1:08am

^I don’t disagree with you. You attack someone, especially if they have a sword, and that is what can happen.

My issue is with others’ logic that the death is somehow deserved because a) the person had broke into lots of homes before or b) he broke into this home.

Then again, I don’t ‘get’ the reasonable castle doctrine. I get the defend yourself when being attacked, I don’t understand the presumed threat of imminent danger because someone breaks into your property.

I’m not arguing with anyone. I just have a different perspective.

pugmadkate · September 16, 2009, 1:16am

From the article,

A detached garage is not a home. Grabbing a sword and confronting an intruder would could have had a gun is not safe and not smart. He voluntarily put himself in the position of “having to defend himself by whatever means he had available.” And now he has to live with what he did, which must have been very traumatic.

Again, I’m very surprised that here, of all places, there is so much praise for this young man’s actions. Would any one here go out to the garage after calling the police? More importantly, would you tell your child to do it?

I’m in no position to know if the student should be prosecuted, although it sounds like he should not so far but I fail to see why that means his actions should be praised.

Icarus · September 16, 2009, 1:19am

Yes he would have, but this is a moot point, because thats not what happened. For whatever reason, he did decide to confront the burglar armed with a sword, and we all know the end result.

Yes they can, and in fact they should. And I agree completely with thecheckbook - the student is the victim here, not the perpetrator.
And the reason they can release the student from suspicion of wrongdoing is that he is in fact in his lawful residence and the burglar is not, along with the other circumstances of the case. If this had happened out on the street or out in public somewhere, then yeah a little more investigation is necessary. But here, consider the totality of the facts. You have signs of forceful entry, the legal resident of the property with a samurai sword saying he was investigating a break-in and was attacked, and a dead suspect with a mile long rap sheet who had been released from jail for a similar offense just a few days ago. Doesn’t take a degree in logic to figure this one out.

Icarus · September 16, 2009, 1:26am

Saying the detached garage isn’t a “home” is really grasping at straws. From a legal standpoint, it is the same. It is on his private property and is a part of his legal residence. And while what he did might not have been the smartest thing he could have done, the fact remains that it is what he actually did.
And he didn’t put himself in the position of having to defend himself, the burglar did by attacking him. If he had left when confronted, the student wouldn’t have been in the position of having to defend himself. I know this might be subtle difference from what you said, but it is an important one.

pugmadkate · September 16, 2009, 1:38am

No, it is not grasping at straws. My garage is across my lawn. If someone kicks in my backdoor, that is far more threatening and violent than kicking in the door to my garage.

Yes, he did put himself in that position. He left a secure building to enter a building he suspected someone with bad intentions had broken into. It goes beyond “not smart.” I’m speaking as a parent here, if this were my kid, I would be beside myself that he was so reckless with his own life.

I understand what you are saying about the burglar attacking him but there were two people in that garage and only one of them is alive to tell the story. I assume the student is telling the truth, my guess is that the burgler was on drugs but I do wonder about the idea of someone without a weapon attacking someone with a several feet long sword. I’m going to wait to see what the police report says.

Icarus · September 16, 2009, 2:05am

But there is still no difference from a legal perspective. And I don’t think there much of a cognitive difference, if any, either.

Well we’re going to have to agree to disagree on who put whom in what position. And I can understand how you would feel if it was your child, but regardless of the tactical soundness of his actions, the fact remains that he did nothing wrong. He went to investigate some strange noises, decided to arm himself (not with the best weapon, but with what he had) in case it was a person with ill intent, and took appropriate action when attacked.

Northstarmom · September 16, 2009, 2:06am

“I assume the student is telling the truth, my guess is that the burgler was on drugs but I do wonder about the idea of someone without a weapon attacking someone with a several feet long sword. I’m going to wait to see what the police report says.”

Having heard only a few days ago a normally calm person saying in response to a hypothetical situation, "If anyone ever tries to steal my boat, I’ll kill them, I don’t assume that the student was just trying to defend himself. Maybe he was. Maybe he wasn’t.

The fact that earlier in the day several expensive items had been stolen from that residence leads me to wonder if the student heard the burglar and then deliberately grabbed the sword and went into the garage with the specific desire to harm the person who had probably stolen their goods and was back to get more. Most people are very angry when they have good stolen, and at the very least have satisfying fantasies of revenge. Speaking from experience.

It is hard for me to imagine that an unarmed burglar would deliberately decide to attack an angry young person with a samurai sword.

I think the police may have similar speculations about what happened.

Whether the student acted out of fear or anger, he probably is feeling regretful now. I doubt that he went to medical school because he had the desire to deliberately kill anyone.

purpleflurp · September 16, 2009, 2:59am

^^In the article I read, the student was not in medical school–he is a 20-year-old undergrad at Hopkins.

Regardless, the students had done the right thing in calling the police. I have no idea why anyone would give the benefit of the doubt to a 28-time convicted criminal and someone who had been brought up on weapons charges (and someone who had just been released from jail for the umpteenth time three days prior to this incident) rather than to a scared undergrad who was in his own home, a home which was the site of a burglary. That makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever.

As a parent, I would strongly advise my kids to never approach a burglar, but this kid did it. I would have been devastated if something had happened to the student, but it didn’t. Instead, a criminal was killed while committing a crime. I have no sympathy for the criminal. He was not a 15-year-old committing a first crime…he was a career criminal who made a mockery of the criminal justice system in this country. That is why some of us are fine with the results of what occurred. We are sick and tired of people standing in defense of career criminals while condemning an innocent student.

member · September 16, 2009, 3:44am

some of you people and your thoughts are really quite scary. You all must be extremely spoiled, and have never experienced any sort of force on your own person.

Do you know how easy it is to kick a door down?

enderkin · September 16, 2009, 4:05am

or break/open a window…

DougBetsy · September 16, 2009, 6:53am

And it’s hard for me to imagine that an unarmed burglar would refuse to leave on command when confronted with a sword. But he did.

How do you know there was no attack on the student?

How do you know the kid was angry? He could very well have been acting (defending) out of fear. He was, after all, the victim of a crime only hours earlier.

Stop speculating and stop calling the student a perp. You weren’t there. All this talk about what you or he woulda/coulda/shoulda do is leading nowhere.

Dionysus58 · September 16, 2009, 8:49am

The guys a murderer, simple as. If he doesn’t get his comeuppance in this life he sure will in the next. Disgusting.

Northstarmom · September 16, 2009, 9:11am

“Regardless, the students had done the right thing in calling the police. I have no idea why anyone would give the benefit of the doubt to a 28-time convicted criminal and someone who had been brought up on weapons charges (and someone who had just been released from jail for the umpteenth time three days prior to this incident) rather than to a scared undergrad who was in his own home, a home which was the site of a burglary. That makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever.”

It makes sense that the police – and other people – would examine all possibilities and also thoroughly investigate before unquestioningly believing the word of anyone who killed another person.

To believe that one should quickly accept the word of the student because the perpetrator (“perp” doesn’t mean “criminal”) was a college student and the deceased was a career criminal who appears to have broken into the student’s home files in the face of how our justice system works and should work.

“That is why some of us are fine with the results of what occurred. We are sick and tired of people standing in defense of career criminals while condemning an innocent student.”

No one here has defended the criminal. Several people – including me-- have said that what the student did – grabbing a samurai sword to confront an intruder in their garage – was stupid. The student is lucky he wasn’t killed.

I have also raised the possibility that the student may have grabbed the sword – not to protect himself – but to deliberately do harm to the criminal. More than likely, the student had other options to protect himself: hiding and even fleeing the house are among those options. I don’t know why the student grabbed the sword and took it to where the intruder was, but I don’t assume that the student lacked other options.

I don’t think it’s OK for people to take the law into their own hands. I don’t believe in lynch mobs. If out of anger, the student was deliberately trying to harm a fleeing burglar, I wouldn’t give the student a free pass.

As I’ve said before, I wish that the career criminal had been locked up until he was of an age that he was unlikely to have been able to pursue a criminal life.'

For those who seem to assume that students can’t do wrong and criminals are never victims, remember the case earlier this year of the Harvard medical student who after robbing prostitutes to support his gambling habit killed one. That’s a good example of why good police take the time to find out the facts before deciding whether to charge someone in a situation in which one person has killed another.

Meanwhile, none of us – including me – know what happened. What I have suggested are only possibilities not facts. The police are the ones who are in a position to find out what really happened, and that’s why they didn’t immediately let the student go free, and that’s why I’m glad to live in our current country, not the Wild West.

purpleflurp · September 16, 2009, 9:16am

“To believe that one should quickly accept the word of the student because the perpetrator (“perp” doesn’t mean “criminal”) was a college student and the deceased was a career criminal who appears to have broken into the student’s home files in the face of how our justice system works and should work.”

To believe that one should accept the word of Skip Gates because he was a Harvard professor flies in the face of how our justice system works and should work, but that didn’t stop you then, Northstarmom, from accepting his story at face value. In fact, there was compelling evidence that Gates was unruly and also that Crowley was an all around excellent law enforcement officer who taught classes on racial profiling. Yet you continued to vilify Crowley and exonerate Gates of any wrongdoing. Both Gates and this student were on their own property and thus should have had certain rights. This case is different, though, huh? ;)

Johns Hopkins University student kills intruder with sword

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