<p>need to work on those critical thinking skill, TIMich.</p>
<p>The point was that underage drinking is illegal but kids ‘do it anyway’.</p>
<p>Ditto, unpaid internships not associated with a college curriculum.</p>
<p>They are mostly illegal, but companies ‘do it anyway’.</p>
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<p>Because they can (and haven’t been sued). Voila, the discussion of this thread.</p>
<p>We told D1 (and will tell D2) that we can send them to any college they want full-pay, or they can choose a cheaper school and use the savings for any number of purposes–including funding a post-graduation unpaid/low paid internship (meaning living expenses). It’s been mentioned upthread that it can be worth figuring the costs of such internships into a “college” education budget. </p>
<p>Long line getting into the parking lot this morning: lots of interns starting today. :)</p>
<p>You’re telling me to work on critical thinking and you missed my point completely…</p>
<p>The illegal activities of some random college kid are not under the same microscope compared to a major company. </p>
<p>Make it illegal if you’d like. Its not going to help out any aspiring “fashion journalists” or “museum reviewers” put there. </p>
<p>If the supply is too large or the demand is too small… they’re hurting the minute they pick a major</p>
<p>Michigan, you are young and very Naive. Additionally, you place more worth on your engineering degree than the arts, but the arts are just as if not more important, because the arts are what make life worth living and enjoyable. Regardless, the fact is, these companies don’t use interns to do the interns any favors, they use interns to exploit them . . free labor. Why should an engineering intern be paid but not an intern in the film industry or the arts? That doesn’t make sense. If there was no need for the interns, they wouldn’t be used.</p>
<p>By the way. Engineers are a peculiar group. Lawyers will exclude them from juries where ever possible because they tend not to be critical thinkers and tend not to be compassionate or empathetic (your posts meet this stereotype). Clearly you have no empathy, by your own words, for those you consider less worthy than you because of their chosen field of study. Criminal defense lawyers on the other hands like engineers in certain cases, because if you can’t lead them from point A to B to C to D, they will tend to find reasonable doubt. They have trouble seeing the broad picture for some reason. Not sure why that is.</p>
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<p>Blossom, I think it depends who you ask. The youth of our country have been trampled upon by the Boomers. Their education can cost a fortune, there are no jobs, their loans are non-dischargeable and charge unconscionable rates of of interest, and they are exploited by corporate America. I’m glad to to know your company does not do this and is abiding by the law. I agree that given this case, this sordid abuse of Corporate power may well come to an end (although there are a number of exception in the FLSA that will still allow this abuse to continue).</p>
<p>“In my day there was no such thing as unpaid labor. You worked, you got paid.”</p>
<p>Not sure what your day exactly was, but I graduated in 1988. I went to Wellesley, worked a hostessing and a babysitting job for money, and did two unpaid internships - - one for a government office and one for an advertising agency. Neither was an amazingly stimulating experience, but I got great references from my two supervisors there. And I didn’t end up working in government or advertising. But, I didn’t regret doing either one because I learned some things about the industries, and I came away with two strong references, and it really wasn’t that hard or that burdensome for the 8 weeks I participated.</p>
<p>I had a paid internship in the summertime, and there I was definitely working a lot harder and got a lot more scut work to do. Both the unpaid internships, I was treated more nicely and given more interesting projects. I felt that the employers realized they needed to make it worthwhile because there’s nothing holding the intern there whatsoever . . .</p>
<p>That’s obviously one tiny piece of anecdotal data, but I do think people did unpaid internships in the past - - not just in the most recent decade.</p>
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<p>What is your definition of “critical thinking”? Engineers may be more prone to thinking in a quantitative and logical way than a humanistic way, but that does not mean lack of “critical thinking”. Indeed, the parsing and application of law requires some amount of logical thinking (the writers of the LSAT seem to think so), so wouldn’t the lawyers on the side of the case that is weaker based on the actual law be the ones who want to exclude logical thinkers from juries?</p>
<p>That’s great if they make people feel nice, it really is. But if there isn’t that high of a demand then these paid internships aren’t going to be popping up. Just as you say these majors make life worth living, STEM majors make everything else and keep it running. Based on the hundreds of companies at our career fair looking for engineers and the well paying internships I’d say there us a demand. There’s a demand because its hard. Its not all fun and games and you’ll be frustrated, exhausted, etc at points. </p>
<p>Demand for certain majors determines their pay and the number of jobs. You could see an artist on TV, or really like to read, or idolizes some journalist that made it big, great, go major in that. That doesn’t mean tens if thousands of kids aren’t doing the sane and the doesn’t mean there are tens of thousands of jobs out there. No matter how much you value your degree that doesn’t mean everyone else will. </p>
<p>Students don’t generally go “Yeah! I can’t wait to be a STEM major and work hard for my degree while sacrificing some fun.” Or “Wow that math major on TV was so cool! I want to do that!” The supply isn’t going to be as large but the demand is still there.</p>
<p>Lacking empathy? More like I’m a realist. Major in what you like. Pursue your dreams. Do what makes you happy. But that doesnt mean you’ll have a job waiting for you at the end. That doesn’t mean society will bend for you do every Art major can have s job. I never said they’re “less worthy”. I don’t decide that. You go to college, ultimately, for career purposes. If you spent it doing something that doesn’t make you as attractive as a candidate as someone else I’m not going to level the playing field for you. </p>
<p>I’m not sure what’s so ridiculous about what I’m saying. Demand for these interns isn’t going to be manufactured out if thin air because now companies have to pay for them. If anything the opposite will occur.</p>
<p>If you’re looking for the truth in the legal process, I’d think you’d want someone to look at all of the facts in an unbiased matter. Not someone to go “oohh, that poor boy/girl! GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!”</p>
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<p>Not saying whether I like or don’t like. The law is the law.</p>
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<p>Yup.</p>
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<p>Except that we have things like federal/state minimum wages laws, which set a floor on what could be paid for gardening or hamburger flipping. We also have wage laws for minimum age that one can work. We also have laws that say interns must be paid, with few, legal exceptions. </p>
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<p>There are exceptions to FLSA. Even the feds – the “F” in FLSA – have unpaid internships, but they are tightly controlled.</p>
<p>“Lawyers will exclude them from juries where ever possible because they tend not to be critical thinkers and tend not to be compassionate or empathetic”</p>
<p>Wow. I’m not an engineer or a lawyer, but this statement is quite a generalization to assert. I suspect that if engineers are truly excluded from juries (as are doctors – are they also not compassionate or empathetic?), it is because they might use logic and not be easily swayed by emotional argument.</p>
<p>“And the vast majority of them violate federal (and many states’) laws.”</p>
<p>This may well be true . . .I don’t really know because after reading the criteria that someone else kindly posted early on . . .I’m not sure if most unpaid internships meet the criteria, or don’t meet the criteria.</p>
<p>I’m not advocating that anyone violate the law. But I am saying I don’t agree with this particular law, or at least a stringent interpretation of it.</p>
<p>You might want to exclude from a jury anybody who might bring their own technical expertise to the case, as opposed to the evidence that’s presented. So, for example, if one of your expert witnesses is an engineer, you probably don’t want an engineer on the jury.</p>
<p>“I am the business sponsor for our company’s internship program. We pay them a fair wage and offer a real training program for them. We do it to recruit full time employees, use it as a marketing tool for the company (creating buzz when they go back to campus), and maybe getting some work out of them. I do it because I like working with young people and creating more paid internship for students.”</p>
<p>This is truly wonderful, and for companies that can afford it and have a terrific sponsor like Oldfort . . .hey, what’s not to like. I am just not sure you can legislate this issue in such a way that it is a win win situation. I feel the free market can handle it just fine. I’m sure Oldfort’s company isn’t the only one that sees the benefits and pays their interns.</p>
<p>ThisIsMichigan,
You are confusing your personal contempt for some majors and career paths with the issues that are being brought up in this thread. If you wrap your head around the concept that many very intelligent and driven people chose to enter many diverse fields, you will understand better the issues at hand.</p>
<p>Yes, the more selective companies can be, the more they will raise the bar for entry into a field. Currently there is more demand for engineers in the job market than let’s say talent agents or lawyers so ti si easier to get jobs without jumping through as many hoops.</p>
<p>Currently one can get a job right out of college with good grades in a state semi-selective school with a BS in engineering because there are a lot of openings. The kid from a better school or with more paid internships or stellar grades may have their choice of jobs that are at better companies and at higher salaries, but in the end, most engineers are employable straight out of school. That’s great, if one wants to be an engineer. But let’s face it, if the market is absolutely flooded with mediocre engineers and the demand for engineers dries up in a slow economy, then the kid from the better school with internships is in, and the others are out. Then engineers will be in the same situation as those in more selective fields.</p>
<p>Back to talent agents. It can be a very lucrative field with many smart people vying for a chance to work their way up. But since the demand is greater than the need, the bar is up. The people at my D’s company that are in entry level/ assistant jobs are graduates of ivies, good private schools and some top states. Some are law school graduates because there is still only one way up to become an agent.</p>
<p>But the question is, should the way up include unpaid internships? Because right now that is part of the protocol for getting an entry level job. </p>
<p>The questions raised here on this thread involve the legality of having people work without salary and the socioeconomic exclusivity it creates in some industries because many people cannot afford working without pay either summers, during school or post graduation.</p>
<p>Someone brought up student teaching in a previous thread, but remember that when you are student teaching you can at least take out student loans to cover your expenses. If you graduate and then have to do an unpaid internship, you can’t take out student loans, and depending on how long you need to intern, you may be forced to begin paying back your undergraduate loan.</p>
<p>So with the situation as it is, certain fields that are reliant on interns are going to push people away if they don’t have parental support. And that is wrong on many levels. Plus even if a parent can pay, why should adults be working without wages, when there are laws in place that say it’s illegal. That is the point of the thread, not whether their college major was wise or whether the industry they chose to work in is selective.</p>
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<p>I think this should be stated more as an opinion than a fact.</p>
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<p>There is no such thing as legislation that is ‘win-win’ for all. Every piece of legislation has unintended consequences, which are generally negative.</p>
<p>I don’t expect the demand for engineers to “dry up” any time soon. Buy that’s besides the point. </p>
<p>I think these students are better off having these internships as unpaid. Thus allows there to be more opening and allows more students to get their foot in the door, hopefully exposing the talented ones. But like you said, demand isn’t as high. Making them paid will lower a company’s desire to have an intern, hurting prospective students.</p>
<p>What I’m saying is I’m not going to feel bad for those in this situation now, or in the future if made illegal. They knew the major they signed up for and they knew the career outlooks. We can’t hold everyone’s hand because they want to do a fun/easy/low demand/etc major.</p>
<p>I think a lot of people don’t consider that forcing compensation for unpaid internships means you ban most unpaid internships. A lot of summer internships provide very little actual value add and soak up a good amount of training time if they’re doing anything meaningful.</p>
<p>Also, college kids need to realize if the value of your labor is basically just whatever it costs to have you there(other employee time + equipment + liability), what skills are you really learning?</p>
<p>Finally, unpaid internships exist primarily in government/small business/fashion/sports/journalism/law. These fields don’t pay interns because they don’t have to. Forcing them to pay interns will just mean even more people don’t have any experience.</p>
<p>So call it a traineeship or a shadowing opportunity. Not an internship. Would that work?</p>
<p>We have a lot of parents here who are very senior within their organization. I would encourage you to sponsor an internship program if your company doesn’t already have one. My firm had the money, but they needed someone to push to get it done. Senior management all rolled their eyes when I originally suggested it (I was only few months old at this firm). I was lucky that our head of recruiting was also very enthusiastic about it. She helped me to pull it together. Now the interns are here, senior management think it is a great thing. They are all volunteering to give talks and taking interns out for various outings.</p>
<p>I hope what I am doing will bring some good Karma to my kids. :)</p>
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<p>You still don’t get it; they ARE (mostly) illegal today. </p>
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<p>no and no. (shadows just sit, watch and listen – they do no work besides perhaps fetching coffee for themselves and others)</p>