<p>I refer to this as “big fish in the little pond” syndrome. You have a student who is a good student - and at their hs - they are at the top of the class and very well regarded - so they - and their parents - think they are Ivy-bound. What they seem to forget is that there are thousands of high schools in the US and each has their own top kids - plus the int’l applicants - and they are all aiming for the same handful of schools. </p>
<p>We have this situation in our family right now - a cousin who is #3 in her class at her Texas hs( we get updates - she’s #4 - she’s #3). Her test scores are excellent - but I’m not aware of any unusual or amazing ECs. Basically - a nice kid and a good student - but they are talking Stanford! It’s impossible for me to say anything without sounding like I’m jealous or being too competitive - so I’m just gong to…smile and nod!</p>
<p>I told them about CC and I hope they at least lurk! They might at least get a clue…</p>
<p>The sad thing is that they don’t realize that their really good kids are so fungible with the really good kids at virtually every other high school. I don’t think that they realize the size and depth of the pool of their competition.</p>
<p>I have no doubt that the twins could do the work at Yale or Penn or wherever. And either or both of them could get lucky in the admissions lottery.</p>
<p>I’m afraid the GC is going to have a time of it convincing the family to apply to real match or safety schools–the parents just savor the names of the Ivy schools on their tongues!–and that if the twins escape an Andison situation, they might be really upset with having to choose a “lesser” acceptance like Emory or University of Chicago, if they should be even so lucky!</p>
<p>The GC at the high school my sons attended advocates that students applying to highly selective schools have at least 2 safeties and 3 matches (because matches are not necessarily sure things) so that they are ensured of having meaningful choices in the spring. She tries to discourage more than 3 real reach applications because she thinks it is hard to do a superb job on too many applications. </p>
<p>The students from the high school do very well in admissions, including to Ivy and other top schools, but every year some students are still disappointed in their admissions outcomes. And these twins are not at the tippy-top of the pecking order in the high school (for the class of 2009, 17 of 169 were National Merit; 6 more were commended).</p>
<p>Sue22 - I just want to echo what tomofboston said regarding reminding your 9th grader that Harvard is a super reach for everyone. I had a similar situation with my very high-stat son who worked his butt off throughout high school for the sole purpose of being accepted at Duke ED. He had a perfect GPA, amazing test scores, 8 APs, hundreds of community service hours, great ECs, wonderful recommendations and a top rated alumni interview - and he was deferred. It broke my heart to see him question everything that he had done - all the times he had chosen to study rather than go out, etc. In the end - he was accepted everywhere else he applied and is very happy at his university - but I would caution against having a kid focus solely on one reach school. It’s too easy for them to believe that if they work hard enough - it will happen - and the truth is - no matter how hard most of them work - it might not.</p>
<p>We had very little disappointment over DS’s rejection from MIT. Based on CC info, we knew that it was “a lottery school”. He has stellar stats and intersting EC, so we though perhaps his odds were slightly higher than the average 9%, but it was still a crapshoot. By March he had visited again and knew it was not the right fit for him. So you know what I started worrying about? Uh oh, what if he happens to get in? If he won the lottery, there would be all of this peer pressure to attend… ha, both from his friends and ours.</p>
<p>boysx3, That’s kind of bizarre that someone would be talking that way unless the mother was referring to choosing between top choices for ED. Only other thing I can think of - is it possible that the twins have some large or small hook (legacy, close family member donated buildings) that has them convinced it’s a done deal (even if it’s not)?</p>
<p>Just your everyday, wonderful, normal, high achieving students with ordinary good-student activities.</p>
<p>I just think that the mom and dad wear biased, rose-colored glasses…they are the parents whose kids are perfect, never ever do anything wrong, and when their kids don’t “win” (even when it’s not a competition) always feel like they need to have an excuse.</p>
<p>I’m not sure why this prolonged conversation has bothered me so much, but it has.</p>
<p>boysx3, you’re worried about the twins - that’s why this conversation bothers you. They might get into those Ivies - but the odds are very high that they will not, and they need to be prepared with some other wonderful but more accessible choices.</p>
<p>rockvillemom, Stanford has to accept SOMEONE - there’s nothing wrong with your niece applying there. Just so long as her family isn’t talking about it like it’s a done deal, and they have some other colleges that she is also happy with that are more likely to accept her.</p>
<p>You could tell the twins to look at the CC page for the college they are applying to “to get good input on which dorm to request as a first choice”, and then they might start reading (in that thread) about the stats of kids who were rejected there this spring.</p>
<p>boysx3 – are you close enough to this family that it would make sense for you to give them a book as a gift? I’d suggest “A Is for Admission: The Insider’s Guide to Getting into the Ivy League and Other Top Colleges” (by Michele Hernandez). The reason I’d suggest that is that the title would be very attractive to them…- its all about getting into Ivies – but the anyone who is not a superstar would feel pretty intimidated after they get through reading what Hernandez advises. Years ago, that was the book that convinced my son to forget about Ivies, despite his teachers who were so sure that he was “Ivy material” – it gets the message across pretty well what the competition is like. </p>
<p>(For us, book #2 after that was “Colleges that Change Lives” – for the high-achieving offspring of Ivy-obsessed parents, perhaps a good choice for the 2nd book would be “The Hidden Ivies”.)</p>
<p>rockvillemom-
Thanks for the concern, but you don’t have to worry about DS. He’s not a driven student who will be devastated if he doesn’t end up at an Ivy. He’s more of a “Hey I want to do X. I heard Harvard has that. Harvard’s a good school isn’t it?” kind of kid. I have no doubt he will find and be happy at a great school, but I think when the time comes to apply to colleges he’ll realize that Harvard should not be on his list.</p>
<p>I think it’s at least possible that the twins themselves are more realistic than their parents. There have been a gazillion threads on CC over the years from kids who ask how they can make their parents’ expectations more realistic.</p>
<p>I worried a bit when a friend told me that Duke was her child’s safety. Fortunately, my child later told me that the other child knows better. What a relief.</p>
<p>After reading this passage the most obvious thing I noticed was the fact that these kids actually AREN’T strong ivy contenders. A 32 ACT is good, but the vast majority of non-URM ivy league admits have a 34+. Similarly, the vast majority have a combined SAT score of 2250+. 5 APs is good – not great. Again, the majority (not all mind you) have more. These students will indeed have some great choices; however, the family is in for a big disappointment, I’m fearful, if they don’t add some fabulous low-reach/match/safety schools.</p>
<p>Which is why, of course, that Harvard, Yale, & Columbia report a middle 50% range of 30-34 on the ACT. They’re just messin’ with all those ignorant folks who might be deluded into thinking they have the a chance of getting admitted just because their scores happens to be typical for most enrolling students.</p>
<p>The most important thing I have learned from this thread is to ask kids what they plan on doing after HS and actually listening to them. I no longer ask where they are going to college because that assumes they are-and some kids aren’t. It is perfectly OK. My nephew ended up joining the Air Force out of HS and is thriving-he just turned 20 yesterday and is well on his way to starting college and going to Italy for the next few years.</p>
<p>I talked to one recent graduate a few weeks ago about his future plans. He was almost embarrassed to tell me that what he had planned on doing, going to a military type college and then joining the military after graduation, hadn’t worked out so well for his brother so he was instead going to CCRI to start the nursing program while working part-time with the Fire Department here in town. I was very enthusiastic to hear about his plans-after all this country needs as many good nurses as we can find-and he was visibly relieved. Poor kid-and so many more like him who while they are figuring out what to do with their lives need encouragement not “helpful” advice.</p>
<p>I did tell him whatever he did he would be great at it-and he would make a great nurse-and I meant it!</p>
<p>Before making any assumptions about those stated ranges and real admissions chances, you need to ask yourself how many of the kids presenting scores in the lower part of the range are hooked: recruited athletes, URMs, legacies, development admits, some kind of extraordinary EC (actors, for example). And then ask yourself where the scores of the successful unhooked applicants fall. I think that there has been ample evidence that the acceptance rate of unhooked kids at various highly selective schools is in fact much lower than the overall rate. So, an ACT of 30 may fall in the middle 50%, but the chances of getting in with that score if you are an unhooked BWRK are probably close to zero when the chances of getting in with a much higher score are only 3% max.</p>
<p>For example, it is one thing to apply to D with an ACT of 29 and be a recruited football player, like the S of a poster a year or so ago, and another to apply to D and be a BWRK with no hook. The fact that D took a kid with a 29 should not unduly encourage ALL kids with 29s.</p>
<p>I worry about my d as she has fallen in love with a school, and although within her reach, you just never know. We have time so hopefully we will find schools shel lkies as well. we are at the beginning of her search. As long as the kids name it will prob be alright. but some kids think they have failed if they dont get the tippy top position.</p>
<p>Loved the story about the twins with the dreams of attending Ivy League schools. </p>
<p>There was a lady whose kids were in girl scouts with mine whose daughter was a senior last year and Mommy was convinced that she would get into Princeton. Want to know why? Because she had skipped kindergarten! Obviously, everyone in America who has ever skipped a grade is therefore brilliant and Ivy League material, right? Daughter is currently at the number four state university in our system, and Mommy is one of the most bitter ladies you ever want to meet. (And my husband couldn’t understand why I hid from her the last time I saw her in our grocery store.)</p>
<p>^ that’s so sad for the daughter, who probably was aware of her potential college-wise and may be very happy where she is attending, but has a mother who can’t get over it… talk about pressure!</p>
<p>I had a convo with a mom of a current senior the other night, she has asked our opinion on things since we met a few years back at a scouting event since we have similarly academic kids of varying ages. She told me her DD was really getting involved in her college app. process and they were wondering how involved they should be. These are 100% interested and supportive parents - wondering if they should be doing more (than nothing!) Their daughter is thinking Georgetown or Vanderbilt for pre-law. I asked if they had discussed finances AT ALL with her, esp. given that we are from an income area where very very few are eligible for financial aid. They had figured what they could afford/month and told her that, the number would just about cover an in-state school, but she is still planning on one of these (or similar) schools, assuming there will be scholarship money to pay for it. The numbers just don’t add up, and she is relying on advice from a current GTown student who has a “full ride,” which in reality is a small merit $, loans, financial aid and work study.</p>
<p>I highly encouraged them to have a frank money discussion with her NOW, and find a few financial safeties/matches that she could apply, also to go to CC and see the real stats on what merit $ people got with what stats. Our GCs are useless, 350+ kids each and not at all involved with the process. Hope they take the advice seriously and get talking on this or come late April when everything is in there will be a very disillusioned daughter.</p>
<p>I understand having your kid be a self-starter, but when it comes to $ you have to have the discussion -
my rant (sorry!)</p>