We spent a significant sum and lots of time & resources taking our kids to medical specialists (including long flights several summers) to help them get diagnosed and treated for their chronic health conditions. I guess that was one of their major activities. Fortunately, we didn’t go into debt for it but it did affect many aspects of our lives over those many years.
We didn’t spend much money on soccer, basketball, scouts, band and orchestra, canoe paddling, and judo in comparison.
Our kids were told they had to be willing to do headers to advance to the traveling team in soccer (in grade school)—our kids said nope, they wanted to keep their brain cells, thanks.
@Trixy34@blossom I absolutely agree with you both, that access is often even a bigger problem than affordability for low income families, and not only for ECs, but for fresh produce and other affordable healthy food choices, often healthcare and even school. However, not having access, and ECs not being offered in low income areas, while being highly important, doesn’t negate the only point that I’m really trying to make, that the claim that many people were drowning in debt because of ECs is false.
Are there families with moderate income who decided that paying 50% of their disposable income on Johnny’s soccer? Probably, because there are people who do all sorts of dumb things - on CC we’ve heard of parents who sell their house to pay for their kid’s tuition, rather than send their kid to rub elbows with the plebs at a public college. I am sure that there are moderate income parents who believe that by supporting Margaret’s sailing with the most exclusive and expensive clubs will get her recruited as an athlete at an Ivy, or something, and waste half of their disposable income in this vain pursuit. But there is no nation-wide problem, with tens of thousands of parents going into debt because of massive expenses incurred by ECs.
At least based on the people here, parents are actually NOT investing in their kids’ ECs to help with college admissions, but because kids their benefit and enjoy these activities, and that is what parents do - they take care of their kids’ wellbeing. Parents do not pay for George’s soccer practice or Bob’s dance lessons because these look good on college applications, but because George loves soccer, and Bob loves dancing, and that is enough for most parents.
Low income families get into debt for trying to provide food, shelter, and healthcare for their kids, not because of their kids’ ECs.
Many low income kids would have difficulty even getting to practice for the ECs, as many are not at or near school and the parents may need to work multiple jobs just to pay bills.
This describes me. Except I did not even know that a sport may help with college until her Freshmen year of high school. Luckily our story had a happy ending. But I do know many very sad stories when people sold their houses, relocated to Florida, spent all their money and then the kid quit and did not even want to play sport in college. Or education was so compromised that the kid did not go to college at all. Or the kid had enough of pushy parents, escaped and got married to a random person.
Expensive sports are the purview of rich people who can easily cut losses. We competed against people who were spending 100K/year for child’s sport, even some people who claimed that their budget was unlimited. And they had college consultants, college athletic recruiting consultants, their private school GCs and their private coaches who called Ivy coaches and begged them to recruit their charges. Donations and (as we now know) bribes and fake ACT scores went on top of that.
However, if a regular family has a talented child and dedicated parents anything is possible…
A foreign friend now living in the (pricey) suburbs of Washington DC who grew up in modest circumstances overseas, told me of loving to buy stuff and experiences for her only son. It wasn’t expensive stuff – or extravagant experiences – but it certainly was more than she had grown up with. Well, her husband had two young boys from his first marriage who were growing up in the same country my friend grew up in. My friend had this epiphany when she visited her step sons and watched them play, usually outside. “Here I was buying all these toys, and dragging my son to museums and all kinds of enrichment activities, while my step-sons were playing with sticks, stones, strings, using their imaginations and devising elaborate games, usually outdoors.” Impressed, she came back to her American home and eventually donated 3/4ths of her son’s toys. “Go play in the yard!” she told him. Fast forward some 20 years, all three are now engineers - with degrees from the University of Maryland – as well as avid outdoorsmen. My friend says, having to make their own toys and being told to play outside all summer long made the boys creative, resourceful and independent. That really made me think whether giving kids too much, and making them do too much, doesn’t in the end diminish rather than expand their horizons…
@MWolf Haha, as a Russian parent in the US I’ve seen a lot of this among friends and acquaintances. Their kids are very busy with all kinds of extracurriculars, mostly academic/music/theater. I was a more relaxed parent and only insisted on any kind of sport at least once a week for exercise, and inexpensive private Russian lessons which stopped in HS when DS threw himself into lot of school-based activities, mostly free. We didn’t send him on any expensive school trips or summer camps which presumably look good on a resume. I feel vindicated now that he is the one who is going to a top school
My D was a gymnast for 7 years (competitive for a good part of that, which, $$). Did we think she was going to the Olympics? No. Were we paying all of that money, doing all of that travelling, committing all of that time in the hopes of a college scholarship? No. Was it our plan for our kid to be in a high-cost sport with no guarantees that she would get a resume-building experience out of it? No. Did we do it because she (and we) enjoyed it and got a lot out of it, and that we all wanted to see how far she could take it? Yes. Then, middle school hit and she felt she had no time for any other activities. She quit and went on a “vision quest” for her “thing”. Were those 7 years “wasted”? Nope, because it gave her much more than a strong body and athletic ability - confidence, commitment, work ethic, competitive spirit, etc., are just some of the takeaways. Her “things” became track, tennis, theater and mock trial, along with excellent grades. Were we happy that all of her EC’s wound up being school-based, so low-cost and logistically easier? You betcha.
@yucca10 We used to say that, when a Russian family came to Israel and they weren’t carrying a musical instrument, it means that their kid probably played the piano or sang
My wife is one of those immigrants, so I understand everything you’re saying…
Alright, I’ll admit that I think we spent too much time and money on sports. Did we go into debt? No. But, we probably would have been better served putting more money into college and retirement savings and doing a wider variety of other activities including travel. Where we live, sports are huge and there are many more opportunities to play select for $$$ which means the rec leagues suffer from low attendance. My kids did move to Ultimate in high school and we only pay a modest amount in tournament fees a some optional summer travel.
It is not at all unusual for parents of talented music kids, particularly strings or piano, to fly or drive great distances weekly in order for their kids to study with remote teachers. My area has a number of those “destination” teachers, but I can still name a number of families my music kids crossed paths with that opted for week flights to NYC for lessons instead of local pedagogues. I’ve also known more than one family that relocated to an area so the kid could study in a particular pre-college music program.
Some of those “kids” now have solo and orchestral careers. Others eventually left music to pursue Med School, Law, etc.
I have also heard of families borrowing from retirement funds or 2nd mortgages to finance music study. This would not have been my personal choice.
I will just say I hate the current state of youth sports. Teams should be more localized and parents shouldn’t have to travel all over with their kids. That being said we went the route of club swim for D19. It was a little expensive but it is somewhat the nature of the sport with teams needing access to pools. Swim was her thing and overall it worked out. We probably curtailed a few vacations and watched some dollars over the years. If I had it to over again I wouldn’t have jumped into the serious team so soon.
With D23 we went a different route. There was a good rec basketball group in the area. Eventually we got into travel basketball. I coached a couple of seasons. Actually D19 coached a season with the little kids. D23 didn’t love BB so we have moved on. D23 always took some tennis lessons. Nothing serious. She will tryout for tennis in the fall in the HS. She will never be great, but it will be something to do. Tennis at our HS is not super competitive like BB, softball, and volleyball.
Ironically D23 in the last 18 months has been more busy than D19 was. D23 got into some community theatre. She now has been in 3 plays. Let me tell you that is the place to be for cost. The cost is basically just your costume. The community theatre group is with adults. When she is in a play the time is as much or more than sports, but the cost like I said it almost nothing.
I will just say one more thing about the almighty athletic scholarship. Most sports the scholarship is not 100%. In the end it just becomes a job in college. A fun one, but a jos.
My niece and nephew went to an expensive Montessori. Niece took every lesson known to man - horseback riding, fencing, piano, Children’s Choir, on the swim and tennis teams at the neighborhood club, lacrosse, basketball, soccer and other sports on various teams. How did she get to all these activities? Well by nanny of course.
And I think she was pretty typical of the Montessori peers. They weren’t playing with sticks and rocks in the backyard (which had a pool in it).
@twoinanddone, that would occur outside of the Montessori school. Rigidly regimented activities isn’t the Montessori philosophy. Granted, there is a lot of variation of adherence among Montessori schools as well. Pretty much anyone can call themselves Montessori.
Yes, I also know personally of someone who flies to NYC on a regular basis to take lessons. Music can be very very expensive, especially as the talent grows. My son started violin and piano when he was 5. When he was around 9, his violin teacher informed us that we’d need to get him a violin that’s suitable for competitions, so we purchased an expensive (so we thought at the time) violin and the bow through the teacher’s recommended violin shop in Chicago. As my son’s playing level grew and started winning some concerto competitions, so did his need for better – and lot more expensive – violins and bows that required insuring. Still, they were “only” in 5-digit figure violins and the bows in thousands $$. Then when he went off to this music summer camp, Heifetz Int. Music Institute, at age 14, he was in for a shock of his life. The fellow kids at that age were carrying instruments in 6-digit figures! Likewise with his current college orchestra members, one of whom informed him recently that her mom sold her 6-digit figure violin and bought her a “cheap” $30,000 violin, instead, since she’s not going to pursue a career in music.
These are, however, “investment” violins and bows that could pick up value down the road. But the maintenance cost over the years, oh my! That’s another story. My son, for example, required rehairing his bow just about every two months and that required a two hour drive to a nearest trustworthy luthier. Likewise, the new bridge, different chin rest, the sound post tweaking, new strings just about every quarter… Never ends. Competitions means long drives or flying. Competitions also mean hiring and paying piano accompanists, registration fees, new and ever changing wardrobes, etc. The youth symphony’s biennial international trips? $6000 per trip on average.
I breathed a long sigh of relief when my son decided, shortly before we were due to fly all over the country for conservatory auditions, that he didn’t want to pursue a career in music. Those trips alone would have cost me thousands. With him in college pursuing a pre-med while participating in the orchestra, I now just need to worry about paying for the instrument insurance and the maintenance cost.
Eh… I don’t regret it. I had one that showed horses, she still works with horses today (she LOVES it) and she grew up with an LD that made her the target of bullies, and school was super hard for her so horses and showing were her thing and her happy place. I also have a figure skater – not anymore, we always knew she wasn’t going to the olympics nor was she likely to skate in college and if she did it wasn’t for the money at all, but she learned a ton, made great friends and it shaped her hard work ethic today. The 3rd played lacrosse (still does) and it was actually the cheapest of all of them and she does play at college, again NOT for the money. I wouldn’t take back a single dollar or minute for these experiences for them.
I don’t regret it either (but then we didn’t go into debt). Our D still loves dance and is doing it in college. Probably won’t become a professional dancer but who knows?
I’d guess total expenses over 13 years were in the high five figures (20+ hours per week in high school plus summer intensives). But we are incredibly fortunate to be getting that back and more in terms of scholarship savings: even though her scholarship is based purely on academics not dance, she wouldn’t have considered the college she is attending if it hadn’t been for their dance program.
My two daughters participate in a competitive sport that takes them all over New England (five states) through the year, including summer. They are both good enough to compete nationally (both are regional champions in their divisions), but that would be an additional expense and time commitment that I cannot afford. It takes all I have to get them all over the northeast all the time. Part of me is sad they don’t go to nationals, but then again, this is not even their main EC - their main EC takes even more time (but far less expense!), is unique and is a passion that stretches back into their early childhoods, and there probably won’t be anyone else in the applicant pool with this on their activity sheet (can’t go into it more than that for the sake of staying anonymous.)
Two points regarding the above - 1) a traditional extracurricular in which a kid is able to reach a high level of achievement can be expensive for the parent and time consuming for the parent and the kid. 2) A strange and unique (and authentic) EC in which a kid can reach a high level of achievement can be free (or almost free) and time consuming for just the kid.
I don’t think a kid has to do anything that’s expensive to stand out, it’s possible for them to have something they love and pursue that is just their own and doesn’t involve the rat race of tournaments and competitions and dealing with crazy “soccer moms/dads.” My two do both types because they love both of their ECs. As for the traditional EC - they love traveling around and competing (I don’t like it that much because other parents can be so incredibly rude and unsportsmanlike, and I am becoming more and more allergic to obnoxious people as I get older).
I often look around at the tournaments and wonder how many other kids could participate and blow the current competitors away…if only they could afford to be here.
So many extracurriculars are a result of privilege. So glad the admissions folks are giving jobs and family responsibilities equal weight with the more traditional ECs these days.
Enrolling your kids in a variety of extracurricular activities so they become well rounded and accomplished is the modern equivalent of an aristocratic upbringing lol.
Fortunately, we didn’t go into debt for it but it did affect many aspects of our lives over those many years.