King George W Abolished Habeas Corpus!!!!!

<p>"How do you justify these actions (torture, suspending habeas corpus, secret prisons, etc) with “suspected” terrorists any more than you’d justify it with, say, a “suspected” serial killer? "</p>

<p>Exactly! As I said, EVERYONE, citizen or not, should be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Isn’t that one of the basic liberties our country was founded on?</p>

<p>What is happening??? Why can’t people see it?</p>

<p>I have a question: just why was Padilla treated that way? Why was he presumed guilty?</p>

<p>“the few records that have become public regarding former (or current) GITMO prisoners show that this admin uses the flimsiest of pretexts to keep people locked up that it swept up in its hysteria”</p>

<p>Exactly. And, to ff, this admin. has already shown that it abuses power. So to open the door to more abuse by allowing this to continue is absolutely insane. </p>

<p>FRODO FAILED. BUSH HAS THE RING!</p>

<p>Jose Padilla is a very, very bad guy. The evidence of his collaboration with Al Qaeda is overwhelming. If anyone is curious, there is a TON of open source information on this guy, all of his activites, and his primary relationships. It would make some sense to take some time to study the material from the past several years before jumping to erroneous conclusions.</p>

<p>but these people dont care what padilla is. Its about politics for them. They need a bomb to go off near their house for anything to change</p>

<p>Well, if the likes of Jose Padilla were permitted to be in this country, there’d be bombs aplenty. This is one very, very nasty character. He’s tied in to so many terrorist cells it’s ridiculous…what’s really alarming is that he appears to have been fully funded.</p>

<p>none of that matters to these peacniks. Perhaps when a bomb does go off near their home theyll cry about y bush didnt do enough.</p>

<p>I wonder how many of those who support the elimination of habeas corpus for American citizens deemed enemy combatants by the administration would be supporting it if Clinton were in office still?</p>

<p>They’d be horrified at the idea of someone they’ve demonized so much having that kind of power over them. What they don’t understand is that they haven’t given this power to a man; they’ve given it to a role. If it’s wrong for one occupant of that role to have that power–it’s wrong for all of them.</p>

<p>latetoschool: “Jose Padilla is a very, very bad guy. The evidence of his collaboration with Al Qaeda is overwhelming.”</p>

<p>Latetoschool, you must have been late to civics class too! We have a justice system so that we can PROVE bad guys are bad and then lock them away. Believe it or not, it works. If you don’t believe it move to North Korea or any number of countries where people have no rights (how about China?). Oh yeah, they lock up bad guys all right — and so what if a few innocent ones slip through the cracks??? They want to be good and “safe.”</p>

<p>golani: “none of that matters to these peacniks. Perhaps when a bomb does go off near their home theyll cry about y bush didnt do enough.”</p>

<p>If you’re willing to give up everything this country stands for because you’re worried a bomb might go off near your house, you should go back to whatever totalitarian country you came from. That isn’t the way this country operates. Most of us aren’t so chicken that we’re willing to throw away the very foundation this country was built on.</p>

<p>Peacenik, you ROCK!</p>

<p>as Ben Franklin said…</p>

<p>“Those who are willing to give up liberty for security deserve neither.”</p>

<p>This law throws away nothing. You just have a far left wing peace now ideology that keeps you from simply seeing that there is nothing wrong with this bill. </p>

<p>And by the way my family came from the soviet union 18 years ago, so if anyone knows what its like to live in a totalitarian state its them and I have learned alot from the stories my parents and grandparents have told me and trust America is nothing like a totalitarian state. Furthermore it is people who have come from totalitarian states who know what truly is law that limits your liberty and this buddy is not one. Thank god you have never had to live in a totalitarian state.</p>

<p>"trust America is nothing like a totalitarian state. "</p>

<p>Not yet. </p>

<p>I can appreciate your perspective, but please understand that this is really contrary to everything we stand for. If people don’t heed the warning signs, that is how it happens. The current ‘president’ has done more to seize power than any other that I know of. He has lied and abused his power. We need to pay attention now, BEFORE we end up like that.</p>

<p>I was talking to one of my relatives earlier today and he told me that what sets apart recent immigrants from Russia and Americans who have been living here for a long time is that they are too optimistic and fail to see the true evil of some people and that they do not really understand or feel what true tyranny is because they thankfully have lived in a great country that has given its citizen great freedoms. And that it is this lack of understanding that causes them to throw up red flags whenever the government does something questionable. </p>

<p>There are too many checks and balances in place to turn America into a totalitarian state, its really a ridiculous scenario. Throughout American history dating back to Lincoln in the civil war American presidents have taken what seems to be extra power during war time, but really this is the duty and obligation of government to enact certain laws to fit our security needs and i have yet to see this president lie and abuse his power in a reall way</p>

<p>lealdragon</p>

<p>I can understand you debating with other students like myself in our cafe, I mean at least there you are not getting destroyed like you are here.</p>

<p>There parents are far Smarter and Far Wiser than you and you will be at their stage maybe in 30 or so years. These parents you are talking to are America and its Foundation, I think they know what they are talking about.</p>

<p>lealdragon,</p>

<p>Bush’ll be out of power in 2 years and all will be well. Till then, sit tight.</p>

<p>Golani,
The US has twice abducted totally innocent individuals and “rendered” them to foreign countries where they were subject to torture, because they were mistakenly believed to be terrorists at the time. This is documented fact. Both were Muslim & Arabic. One was a German citizen whose name happened to be almost the same as a terrorist, who was taken into custody while crossing a European border on vacation; the other was a Canadian citizen apprehended when he needed to change planes in New York. In both these cases the Government ultimately acknowledged their mistake, but not until after they had spent months in custody and both suffered torture. If US authorities can mistakenly kidnap innocent individuals because their names are similar to suspected terrorists, they can make the same mistake when they arrest and detain people as enemy combatants.</p>

<p>Habeas corpus is the procedure by which innocent individuals who have been wrongly incarcerated can force a court hearing to determine whether their is legal cause to hold them. It is useless as a tactic for demonstrably guilty people, because it doesn’t get anyone out of jail- it just gets them a court hearing. There is a man in Guantanamo named Abdul Rahim who, as a teenager, was captured and imprisoned by the Taliban and accused of being a spy for America. The Taliban tortured him and forced him, under torture, to swear allegiance to the Taliban during a videotaped interrogation session. After the US invaded Afghanistan, he was released from Taliban custody but almost immediately swept up and became a prisoner of the Americans. Somewhere along the way, the US authorities found a video of the man’s interrogation, and because it ended with his swearing allegiance to the Taliban, they designated him an enemy combatant. He is 23 years old and now has been incarcerated 4 years. He is not charged with any crime. All investigation that has been carried out by his legal team – (interviews with his families and others who were imprisoned with him by the Taliban) – tend to verify his story. </p>

<p>This is one of the cases that is currently pending on habeas corpus. All he is asking is for a hearing in which the US government be required to show what evidence they have that he is, indeed, an “enemy combatant”. They don’t have to prove that he committed a crime, only that he was actually a combatant on the battlefield, as opposed to the other side’s prisoner. </p>

<p>Because the Military Commissions Act is retroactive, the attorneys for the US Dept. of Justice will now come to court to move to dismiss this man’s habeas corpus petition. As the man is not charged with any crime – and therefore will not be tried, ever, by any military commision – he will remain incarcerated indefinitely at Guantanamo. It could be 5 years; it could be 10 years - he has no rights. </p>

<p>(See <a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Terror-Detainees.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Terror-Detainees.html&lt;/a&gt; )</p>

<p>It is sometimes said that “a liberal is a conservative who has been arrested.” It is very easy to ignore the impact of this law as long as you don’t know anyone being wrongfully held under it – but if some relative of yours was the one who was wrongfully declared to be an “enemy combatant”, held for years without recourse to the courts, then you would feel differently. </p>

<p>The protections in the US Constitution and Bill of Rights are there to protect the innocent, and it is the innocent who suffer, sooner or later, when the rights are stripped away.</p>

<p>UB-Vinny77</p>

<p>Lealdragon is a parent. Perhaps, you meant to address your post to golani89. Lealdragon is holding her own nicely in these arguments.</p>

<p>golani: “And by the way my family came from the soviet union 18 years ago, so if anyone knows what its like to live in a totalitarian state its them and I have learned alot from the stories my parents and grandparents have told me and trust America is nothing like a totalitarian state.”</p>

<p>Funny how I guessed that, isn’t it? So, why did you come here if you don’t appreciate living in a country that offers (or is supposed to offer…) civil rights to individuals? Did you only come here for the economic benefits? Civics lesson: They go hand-in-hand to regular citizens. It’s what makes the USA so great.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>golani: " There are too many checks and balances in place to turn America into a totalitarian state, its really a ridiculous scenario."</p>

<p>I’d be curious to know what you think those checks and balances are? A Republican President with an all-Republican Congress? An all Republican/Conservative judicial system? A voting system that is fraught with problems and fraud? What? Tell us!</p>

<ul>
<li>
Like I said, go back to your totalitarian state. You may have been here 18 years, and perhaps you are prospering economically, but I really don’t think you “get it.”</li>
</ul>

<p>18 years ago Golani was in the womb.</p>

<p>unsoccer-mom: thanks! I was hoping someone else would tell him.</p>

<p>calmom: As usual, you offer a very articulate and well-thought-out explanation. May I quote you to others as this issue comes up? Very well said!</p>

<p>I didn’t know it was retroactive. This is worse than I thought!</p>

<p>UCLAri: How much more damage is bush going to do in the next 2 years?</p>

<p>Question for all? Did the founding fathers not envision any checks and balances for a situation in which the Congress, Senate, and Presidency are all run by the same party? (If it were not for both Senate & House being Republican, bush would have been impeached many times over by now.) and did the founding fathers envision a scenario in which voting fraud has ensured that this situation does not change?</p>

<p>Right now the Republicans are doing miserably in the polls. Will they miraculously bounce back on election day, like they did in 2004?</p>