LAC mistake for a conservative kid?

whatever4 · March 2, 2009, 12:15pm

sewhappy, why did your child choose to attend this school if it is that liberal? If the student feels the need to lie about his/her core beliefs, it would seem to be a poor choice of where to spend four years.

And if this Ivy is so unaccepting of conservative viewpoints, how did this student get accepted? Did he/she disguise or lie about the summer work on campaigns and “connecting” with others who share the student’s views? Or was the school tolerant enough of differing viewpoints to accept the student as he/she is?

It makes me wonder if maybe your child is lying to you about why he/she is not involved in political organizations of your liking. Maybe the child no longer agrees with your conservative Republican beliefs, but is lying to you about why she/he is not joining groups like that because you’re paying the bills?

No matter what, I’m guessing the Ivy did not get what it sought when your child enrolled there. I believe Harvard at least seeks out students who are willing to question their beliefs and then demonstrate the inner fortitude to stand up for the convictions they claim, whatever they may be.

sewhappy · March 2, 2009, 12:27pm

Whatever4, if you indeed have a child at an Ivy, I would hope that s/he did not inherit his parent’s lack of civility.

First, you accuse my child of lying on his application to gain admission. Then you accuse my child of lying at college about his political views. Then you announce that his college “did not get what it sought” in accepting him. Oh, and last but not least there’s the really perceptive musing that my son is hiding his newly liberal views from his family over concerns over tuition cost.

Breathtaking! Thank you. My first belly laugh of the day.

geeps20 · March 2, 2009, 12:46pm

I did find that post rather insulting…he sure assumed a lot…typical

whatever4 · March 2, 2009, 1:01pm

sewhappy: “I have a child at a rather famous college who would actually enjoy joining a conservative political group but is afraid to. That’s right . Afraid to for the social beating he would take and also for fear it would show up some day on his resume as he is applying for grad school or a job.”

So your child has not taken “a social beating” nor suffered repercussions like many liberals illegally encountered when they applied for Justice Department jobs under the Bush Administration? Nonetheless, you are blasting Ivy League students/faculty for what you SAY they would do if your student had the guts to stand up for her/his beliefs?

Breath-taking, indeed, sewhappy. IF and WHEN your child gets “a social beating” or encounters hiring discrimination for standing up for his/her conservative beliefs, THEN you can blast someone for it. When the dissing or discrimination are just figments of your imagination because your child is too “afraid” to act on her/his convictions, then keep your unsubstantiated charges to yourself.

emeraldkity4 · March 2, 2009, 1:12pm

Would you say the same thing to a liberal kid in an unwelcoming conservative environment?

I don’t see how standing up for what you think is going to cost you friends.
At Reed, as long as you can explain and defend your position when asked, no one is going to smack you down for it.
If the environment is that hostile, I have to wonder, what was it about the place that made it so compelling?

wjb · March 2, 2009, 1:15pm

My goodness. To my mind, spirited political debate is a big piece of what makes “rather famous colleges” vital institutions. You say your child is at an Ivy. Sorry, but I do not believe that there is any Ivy at which a student who engages in genuine debate – and here I’m referring to an honest exchange of ideas, as opposed to sermonizing or moralizing – risks exclusion by peers, potential employers, or grad schools.

geeps20 · March 2, 2009, 1:20pm

Interesting how so many feel the need to attack someone who posts anything along the lines of there being a liberal bias at colleges. Are you folks embarrassed or something?

sewhappy · March 2, 2009, 1:29pm

Whatever4, must say that between the two of us - judging by your tone - you are far more likely to have a kid afraid to reveal political views that you disagree with.

Here’s the deal about my son: He thinks the students and faculty competing constantly over who can sound the most liberal are pretty foolish and after awhile pretty boring. He is looking forward to life outside the gates. Cowardly? Well, I guess if he thought that what goes on at his college determined the course of the world, then yes. But he doesn’t think that. He thinks most of the people there have a very inflated notion of their own importance.

Now I’m going to apologize to geeps for hijacking this thread. My kid would be appalled at me!

Geeps - have you looked at SMU? I believe they are housing the Bush library!

JHS · March 2, 2009, 1:51pm

No, geeps. I’m happy to admit that most colleges and universities have a politically liberal cast, but I believe – on the basis of experience – that the stories here of liberal oppression are mostly urban legends or situations that are being deliberately mischaracterized to make a political point. (Not that liberals don’t do that, too.)

My reaction to sewhappy’s report is the same as wjb’s: Say what?! The Ivy I attended was/is predominantly liberal, but there was more than a critical mass of conservatives both on the faculty and in the student body to give each other aid and comfort. Politically conservative students were gleeful warriors, and their organizations had much better parties than the liberal ones. (More casual sex, too. The liberals tended to be serious and somewhat puritanical.) No one, but no one, was ever intimidated into not joining a conservative organization, and many of my friends who DID join conservative organizations have had supergreat careers. My personal experience is way past its useby date, but a quick peek at the website of the most vibrant right-wing organization of my college days shows that either it’s still very vibrant or someone is doing a heck of a job running a Potemkin website.

For various reasons, I’ve known people who were in conservative organizations at other Ivies, too. While all of them have complained bitterly about liberal bias at their schools, all of them seem to have had a great time tweaking the Liberal Establishment and hooking up with one another, and, again, evidence of career harm would be awfully hard to come by. (In my field, the only political litmus tests I’ve ever seen in operation have been on the right. Liberals tend to enjoy having conservative subordinates. Some – certainly not all – conservatives want to know that their whole team is on board with their ideas.)

I’m assuming that the organization in question is reasonably conventional, like the College Republicans, or the Party of the Right. If it’s the Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Nation, Posse Comitatus, or something else permanently ensconced on an FBI watch list, yeah, joining could pose social and career problems for him. I’m not going to weep big tears over that.

sewhappy · March 2, 2009, 2:06pm

^ Actually, I think my kid’s biggest concern is that being a conservative at his school is not an asset in pursuing the girls he finds most attractive! Seriously, though, I think there is definite hesitation among the conservative students about putting their EC time into conservative clubs and organizations. There’s only so much time in the day and if that’s all you have to put down on the grad school application then it’s a concern. Those who will be reading those applications are part of the overall ultra liberal education establishment. To pretend otherwise is kind of ridiculous. This would be different for a student pointing toward a career in conservative politics or media, I suppose.

The conservative kids find each other. They usually call themselves libertarians. For some reason, that’s more socially acceptable. Actually, as with any minority group there is a rather nice bonding that occurs among them. My kid is just fine. He is not deliriously happy at his Ivy school. He is not miserable. He does not think this is the moment in life to talk freely about his love for market economics, concern over Islamic extremism, or support for Israel. Just not a good idea where he’s at.

alh · March 2, 2009, 2:12pm

I’m assuming that the organization in question is reasonably conventional, like the College Republicans, or the Party of the Right. If it’s the Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Nation, Posse Comitatus, or something else permanently ensconced on an FBI watch list…

This is what is giving me a migrane about this thread. I have absolutely no more idea now than at the first post exactly what kind of views concerned parents are concerned about. But admittedly I am pretty dense so maybe that is no surprise. I do keep reading hoping to understand.

jdjaguar · March 2, 2009, 2:43pm

He does not think this is the moment in life to talk freely about his love for market economics…

where’s he at, Moscow?

Mrs_Weasley · March 2, 2009, 2:56pm

"…being a conservative at his school is not an asset in pursuing the girls he finds most attractive! " lol!

But how sad that he’s at a college where he doesn’t think it is the moment in life to talk freely about his [political beliefs]. I thought those political debates in the wee hours were an important part of college life and hope my children don’t end up where that is stifled. Someone posted an interesting list of colleges and their reputations for being open to a variety of viewpoints (ranked with green lights, red lights, yellow lights)–it was earlier in this thread.

JHS · March 2, 2009, 3:18pm

sewhappy, that recasting of the story at least begins to sound plausible. One I take from it is that your son is not the most confident guy in the world, which is not so surprising if he’s 19 or 20. But – and I’m being completely honest here – it still doesn’t hang together.

<ol>
<li>Market economics: There is no elite university where you can’t find a whole bunch of students who love market economics. And, more importantly, there is no elite university where you can’t find a whole bunch of professors who also love market economics. And the graduate schools to which kids in love with market economics mainly apply – economics, political science, law, business, and related fields – do NOT mark applicants down for loving market economics. Girls, however, may. There certainly are girls who love market economics, and more now than in the past, but I do suspect that a taste for markets is unevenly distributed by gender. I am pretty certain that no one would get anywhere with my daughter or her friends by talking up Pareto optimality. (Except for one high school friend, the daughter of a famously liberal philosophy professor, who is a hard-core econ jock and sneerer at mushy liberal thinking.)</li>
<li>Islamic extremism/Israel. I am pretty familiar with the range of opinions among American Jews on these topics, and also with the percentage of the student bodies and faculties of Ivy League institutions represented by American Jews. It is difficult to conclude that there aren’t hundreds, if not thousands, of students at each of them who are concerned about Islamic extremism and support Israel. I know for a fact that there are plenty of faculty members who also share those views. There are also faculty who don’t support Israel (not so many who aren’t concerned about Islamic extremism; very few left-wing faculty would thrive in a society run by Hamas or the Taliban, and they know it). If your son really cares about Israel, he won’t be applying to work with them on his thesis anyway. I do understand how discussions of Israel and Palestine these days are horribly rancorous and feel like poison, and I wouldn’t blame any student for wanting to stay away from that. But being anti-Islamist and pro-Israel remains a mainstream position in American academia.</li>
</ol>

(Now, there is something else that goes on. I don’t know if this applies to your son, but for lots of kids college is the first time they come up against the reality that there are lots of smart, well-educated people who are NOT pro-Israel. That can come as a real shock, and feel threatening and disorienting. But it’s a big leap to conclude that one can’t be pro-Israel and have an academic career. In fact, it would be a lot easier to demonstrate that one can’t be ANTI-Israel and have an academic career. Well known academics who criticize Israel – I’m thinking about Rashid Khalidi, John Mearshimer, and the late Edward Said – tend to bend over backward to make clear that they aren’t talking about destroying it.)

geeps20 · March 2, 2009, 3:24pm

Gotta love this…people come here with stories of liberal bias from their kids at different colleges…and then parents who have graduated over 20 years ago respond how it is not the case.

People…wake up…it’s real…and my son wants no part of such colleges where everyone believes the liberal crap without question, and we will absolutely do our DD to find a college where this isn’t the norm.

wjb · March 2, 2009, 3:34pm

^^You are missing the point of the recent discussion with sewhappy. Yes, as JHS points out, American colleges and universities do have a liberal cast. Acknowledged. That does not mean, however, that students who lean conservative are ostracized by their peers or subject to rejection by graduate schools and prospective employers. That’s hyperbole.

morandi · March 2, 2009, 3:36pm

I’m sorry geeps20, i didn’t understand the second part of your statement. .‘and we will absolutely do our DD to find a college where this isn’t the norm’

Was there a typo or a word left out? I’m confused.

As for your son, I hope he wants no part of any college where one is expected to ‘believe without question’ . . .liberal or conservative. . .both can shovel ‘crap’

afadad · March 2, 2009, 4:23pm

Whether it’s a liberal or conservative professor at a college; if they hold the personal beliefs of a student against them in any way, that professor needs to be castrated. Now whether people agree or not, I have personally found less conservative professors holding beliefs against a student that liberal professors. Granted, liberal professors outnumber conservative instructors probably 10-1, but it is my experience. I’ve got 3 college degrees and have been to more than 3 colleges. I have seen first hand a conservative professor totally disagree with a student’s opinion/position. I’ve seen them debate, argue, yell, etc… I’ve seen the frustration level on both sides go through the roof. But when all was said and done, I saw that same student get an “A” in the class. On the other hand, I’ve seen first hand liberal teachers who once they’ve determined a conservative student’s beliefs/values, that while they may not “directly” slam the student, they almost never called on the student; almost never involved them in discussions; and gave the student the NEUTRAL grade of “B”. With a “B”, you can’t really complain or argue. The professor’s reason for the “B” is that the student wasn’t as “Participative” as the others. They didn’t realize that they either didn’t allow the student to participate or they totally turned the student off.

Now yes, this can happen both ways. But my experience shows that while conservatives are more likely to argue, fight, debate, disagree, and maybe think the liberal ideas to be uneducated; they tend to not make it personal or hold it against the student. Conservatives tend to be more “constitutionally minded” and therefor more tolerant of others freedom of speech of different opinions. They might not agree or respect the opinions; but they respect the right of the individual to make it. The liberals professor tends to take differences in philosophy, ideals, and politics “Personal”. And as such, because the conservative’s nature in a disagreement is to debate, argue, etc.; the liberal feels “attacked”. And therefor they tend to hold it against the conservative. Directly and indirectly.

I’ve also seen this many times in real life. I’ve argued with a fellow conservative on some pretty heated debates. Abortion, guns, taxes, religion, etc… While I consider myself extremely conservative, I do have some conflicting opinions with some. Either way; after all the arguing and debates, we can walk away, smile, and continue on with out lives. It is not uncommon however when trying to have a similar debate, argument, etc. with a liberal, that the liberal doesn’t “Like” you any longer afterward. They will be cordial, but you can easily tell that the relationship has totally changed. Basically; a liberal can debate with another liberal topics like religion, politics, economics, etc… and be fine. Because they either agree with each other, or because the topic stays at a very superficial level. A conservative can debate with another conservative, because no matter how much they argue, when all is said and done, they still respect each other. However; when a conservative debates a liberal about these same heated topics, when the dust settles, the conservative will have no problem moving on and continuing their relationship. But the liberal will totally change their opinion of the conservative. They will consider their opinion not worthy of respect. They will will not respect them the same as they use to. This IS my observation. No one has to agree with it. Being very involved with the theater, movie, and entertainment industry, I have a lot of liberal friends. I also have a lot of conservative friends. In the last 30 years, I know what I can talk, debate, argue, discuss, etc. with my liberal friends. The conservative friends, I can debate just about anything. Even though we can disagree about a lot of it.

JHS · March 2, 2009, 4:38pm

geeps20, thanks to the seamlessness of the Eastern Liberal Elite Establishment, I actually know a bunch of people who teach at the kinds of colleges and universities you are talking about. Moreover, I have two children in college now, and each of them has dozens of friends at other colleges whom I hear about through them, or with whom I chat when my kids are home. And most of my friends have kids in college now, or recent graduates, or kids in grad school. So while my personal experiences are out of date, my sense of the Eastern Liberal Elite Establishment gestalt is pretty current.

So, I say to you, geeps20: Wake up . . . it’s not real . . . there’s no place where everyone believes crap of any sort without question. If you put 20 liberal academics, or 20 conservative academics, in a room, you are going to get 20 idiosyncratic positions, and learn more than you ever want to know about how people who basically agree can disagree with one another. And none of them wants to indoctrinate any students. They want students to understand their thinking, sure, but there isn’t one of them who doesn’t relish a little pushback.

I also note, because I don’t live in Fairy-Tale World, that political conservatives hold real power in the world we live in. This is the third year out of the last 40 that conservatives haven’t controlled two of the three branches of government (7th if you really think Jimmy Carter was a liberal), and the business world isn’t even up for discussion. Between conservative administrators, school boards, boards of trustees, and politicians, not to mention schools affiliated with conservative religions, and of course the occasional actual conservative teacher, the K-12 world in education is at most split between liberals and conservatives. Universities and colleges, especially elite ones, are bastions of liberalism, although not monolithically so. Ditto the press and Hollywood. But they are not all-powerful; in fact they are hardly powerful at all. They exist in the context of the rest of society. Conservatives just are not an oppressed minority, however much they would like to pretend they are. Somehow or another, our liberal, elite colleges keep churning 'em out.

Finally, while I admire the firm quality your 9th-grade son’s political views, I can’t help thinking that this discussion is more about what you want for him than anything else.

Mrs_Weasley · March 2, 2009, 4:54pm

afadad, sorry, but when you say: “conservatives are more likely to argue, fight, debate, disagree, and maybe think the liberal ideas to be uneducated” it doesn’t sound like a demonstration of respect for an alternative point of view. Perhaps you find liberals to be cordial to you after debates with you because they may not want to have a relationship of fighting and arguing with someone who treats them as “uneducated.” Maybe?

LAC mistake for a conservative kid?

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