LAC mistake for a conservative kid?

emeraldkity4 · February 19, 2009, 6:38pm

I dont think it is a coincidence that those in education- or at least those whose vocations require the study of information from varying sources especially up to date sources, are liberal or tolerant in their views.

Children who have newly entered high school, may be startled by the freedom they find there. They often have attended middle school, alongside their elementary school classmates- but in high school, students may disperse throughout the region depending on interest/abiiity.

Courses taken in middle school, may not allow room to express opinions. Some districts even want the same thing taught in each school ( given the same subject) on the same day. Whereas in high school, the staff is working hard to ready the students who likely came with different levels of preparedness, to continue their education and to be a contributing member of society.

In middle school, my daughter had the same teacher for 7th and 8th grade. She also was basically with the same cohort of students as 7th/8th grade was taught together for LA/SS. In high school she wanted something completely different- she chose to attend a very rigorous, large, inner city school, where the teachers put a lot of energy into engaging & challenging the students.

I think it is good that in high school they are taught about ideas and how to analyze and express them. In debate for example, an old technique is to argue the opposite point of view of your own. While some may not like their ideas challenged, those people just may not be totally comfortable with their position and don’t want their holes exposed.
I would agree that if political viewpoints are repeatedly brought up in areas that have nothing to do with the class, then that would be inappropriate if it takes too much class time.
If a student has a real problem with a teacher, I would encourage them to bring it up, not in class necessarily, but after class in a respectful manner.
My older daughter for instance, complained about one teacher in particular, she was a senior I think.
So I said I was going to sit in on the class to see how the class went, I realized the instructor may have toned it down for my benefit, but if he was really that awful, he wouldn’t be able to hide it.
Well.
All I can say is, I wish I had teachers like he when I was in high school. She had complained that he was picking on students, but what I saw, was that he was asking pointed questions about how they reached that conclusion & how the same information could be used to reach a different conclusion.

I liked that he was actually discussing past papers with the class, and why he chose the assignment. I liked that students were getting feedback and were also able to give input about what they learned or didn’t learn.
( Incidentally- this was an lit class & the student that was supposedly being picked on is now a reporter/producer for NPR assigned to D.C., so I expect he learned something as well * oh I am so jealous, I just checked his facebook to see if he was still in DC and Carl Kassel is on his friends list* )

Your child may not be so thrilled you are in class, but at least you will have a more complete picture of not only what the teachers are saying, but how your own child is interpreting it.

alh · February 19, 2009, 6:45pm

Although in absolute agreement with post 152 as to the intent of the OP… in my opinion this was an extremely useful thread. Several posters took a lot of time and energy to clearly explain “education” in a way that may help some readers.

winchester · February 19, 2009, 7:04pm

When researching colleges I find that gathering information from multiple sources forms the broadest, deepest, and most accurate picture of each school. In that vein Id wholeheartedly recommend the book Choosing the Right College by ISI Books to be a valuable addition to your pile along with the ubiquitous Princeton Review, Fiske, and Insight guides. Like all the other college guide books it provides a summary of each school from its own perspective and/or sources (i.e., surveys, interviews, campus visits, etc.).

This book takes the firm position that a set of core requirements aimed at a classic liberal arts education is a good thing. It provides an assessment of each schools outlook and approach toward those core requirements, and when no such requirements exist, or if theyre weak, the book suggests courses offered at the school that a student might take if he or she is interested in pursuing a such a thing.

The book also goes into much more depth than the others on the topic of the political climate on the campus. In my view it is aimed directly at answering your original question. I found the discussion in that regard to be mostly thoughtful and well reasoned with only the occasional foray into political hyperbole.

Heres an excerpt from the book on the topic of political climates, and the books take on the New England schools it evaluates:

We also include short, representative incidents and evaluations of the state of political social discourse, intellectual freedom, and free speech at the colleges we cover. These red, yellow and green lights serve as shorthand for the state of civic liberty at a school. They are drawn from reports by students and faculty and journalistic accounts of the sometimes disturbing degree to which administrator and faculty members employ their institutional power to promote their own private ideological agendas. These sidebars should help students and parents select which colleges are appropriate for them.

Amherst College Red Light
Bates College Yellow Light
Boston College Yellow Light
Boston University Green Light
Bowdoin College Yellow Light
Brandeis University Green Light
Brown University Red Light
Colby College Yellow Light
Connecticut College Yellow Light
Dartmouth College Yellow Light
Harvard University Yellow Light
College of the Holy Cross Red Light
Massachusetts Institute of Technology Green Light
Middlebury College Red Light
Mount Holyoke College Red Light
Providence College Green Light
Smith College Red Light
Thomas More College of Liberal Arts Green Light
Tufts University Red Light
Wellesley College Red Light
Wesleyan University Red Light
Williams College Yellow Light
Yale University Yellow Light

johnwesley · February 19, 2009, 7:16pm

Let me tell you all a story.

Back in September, I paid a visit to my alma mater, one of the most liberal institutions in America. The purpose was to pay my respects to the family of one of our college’s late presidents, whose widow had just passed away at the age of 101.

Of course, being back on campus at any time always offers opportunities for reflection and connections of all sorts and this visit was no different. I sat in on a panel discussion sponsored by the College of Social Studies (CSS).

For those of you who don’t know, the CSS is an inter-disciplinary program that combines History, Government and Economics in what operates in something of a hothouse atmosphere within the confines of the undergraduate college. Minimal class time. Lot’s of written assignments. Only the strongest students are advised to attempt it.

But, if any subject were designed to elicit “liberal opinions”, it was certainly that afternoon’s: “The Economic Meltdown: An Overview.” And, I’d have to tell you that as a liberal, I was a tad disappointed.

There they were, Professors Grossman, Lim, Imini and Eisen, Wesleyan’s best and brightest, arrayed in the front of one of the largest lecture halls in the Public Affairs Center – packed to the rafters with serious and astute students --and, with a target as big as Washington’s Tidal Basin.

And yet, the discussion, which lasted at least an hour and a half, was about as plain and sober as one could imagine. Topics such as the history of market bubbles, economic cycles, derivatives --even physics algorithms were all discussed with alacrity.

I’m sure each and every presenter was probably a liberal Democrat. And yet, I’d be hard put to ascribe which one was espousing the “liberal” position on credit default swaps; there was just too much material to cover to even think about politcal proselytizing.

It wasn’t until nearly the end of the question and answer period where, typically, speaker after speaker spoke of “on the one hand” and “on the other”, that an older man stood up and spoke vociferously in long, fluid sentences, revealing the flat, familiar accent of his native midwest.

It was Professor Michael C. Lovell, Chairman Emeritus of the Economics Department. He advocated putting the heads of the various credit rating agencies in jail. That was the closest to a political opinion expressed the entire afternoon, and it came as something of a relief to finally hear someone utter a clear, concise opinion.

emeraldkity4 · February 19, 2009, 7:16pm

I dont think it is a coincidence that those in education- or at least those whose vocations require the study of information from varying sources especially up to date sources, are liberal or tolerant in their views.

Children who have newly entered high school, may be startled by the freedom they find there. They often have attended middle school, alongside their elementary school classmates- but in high school, students may disperse throughout the region depending on interest/abiiity.

Courses taken in middle school, may not allow room to express opinions. Some districts even want the same thing taught in each school ( given the same subject) on the same day. Whereas in high school, the staff is working hard to ready the students who likely came with different levels of preparedness, to continue their education and to be a contributing member of society.

In middle school, my daughter had the same teacher for 7th and 8th grade. She also was basically with the same cohort of students as 7th/8th grade was taught together for LA/SS. In high school she wanted something completely different- she chose to attend a very rigorous, large, inner city school, where the teachers put a lot of energy into engaging & challenging the students.

I think it is good that in high school they are taught about ideas and how to analyze and express them. In debate for example, an old technique is to argue the opposite point of view of your own. While some may not like their ideas challenged, those people just may not be totally comfortable with their position and don’t want their holes exposed.
I would agree that if political viewpoints are repeatedly brought up in areas that have nothing to do with the class, then that would be inappropriate if it takes too much class time.
If a student has a real problem with a teacher, I would encourage them to bring it up, not in class necessarily, but after class in a respectful manner.
My older daughter for instance, complained about one teacher in particular, she was a senior I think.
So I said I was going to sit in on the class to see how the class went, I realized the instructor may have toned it down for my benefit, but if he was really that awful, he wouldn’t be able to hide it.
Well.
All I can say is, I wish I had teachers like he when I was in high school. She had complained that he was picking on students, but what I saw, was that he was asking pointed questions about how they reached that conclusion & how the same information could be used to reach a different conclusion.

I liked that he was actually discussing past papers with the class, and why he chose the assignment. I liked that students were getting feedback and were also able to give input about what they learned or didn’t learn.
( Incidentally- this was an lit class & the student that was supposedly being picked on is now a reporter/producer for NPR assigned to D.C., so I expect he learned something as well )
Your child may not be so thrilled you are in class, but at least you will have a more complete picture of not only what the teachers are saying, but how your own child is interpreting it.

Forever_LSU · February 19, 2009, 7:19pm

Different views are great, they spark new ideas. Tell him that it is a part of life. Diversity is something you have to accept and deal with on every level.

emeraldkity4 · February 19, 2009, 7:58pm

sorry about the double post- I have dial up and sometimes I meet myself coming and going.
;)

Dbate · February 19, 2009, 8:17pm

Well I find really offensive is the negative characterization of conservatives that extends BEYOND political pundits. In common life liberals berate conservatives and outright insult them on the basis of being conservative. I find it ridiculous when political pundits insult each other (which is why I did not buy Ann Coulters new book, but the last one was awesome :)), let alone for people to actually do this in real life.

If I may be allowed to be a hypocrite and generalize liberals, it seems that they are the ones who really need to have thier minds “opened”, liberals seem to unblinkingly think they are right to the point that they never even consider other ways. Which in all honesty can only be described as closed minded.

A specific example that I thought of today is the barring of the ROTC bc of the Don’t ask, don’t tell policy that btw was signed by BILL CLINTON. Colleges like Columbia and i think Yale won’t let this federal organization on campus because of a policy that they did not formulate it is absolutely ridiculous. I talked the the Air force ROTC officer at our school and he said the class is more about teaching people how to function in the world and not preparing them for military careers. At the same time I was overjoyed that Princeton allows ROTC on campus, if I had the choice between a school like Princeton and Yale I think I would choose Princeton, bc the brave men and women who lead our military should never be insulted in such a manner.
Not all liberals are this way, in fact one liberal friend on mine even wanted to hear my arguements against gay marriage. But (especially on here) it seems as though those who are liberal are quite ignorant of the merits of other opinions, and speak only of conservatives in a condescending manner, which is indicative of pure ignorance.

mathmom · February 19, 2009, 8:27pm

Newsflash Dbate - Clinton did lots of things I thought were terrible. I don’t care who signed it, it was bad policy. ROTC is another matter. I have issues with it that have nothing to do with don’t ask don’t tell.

Dbate · February 19, 2009, 8:34pm

Not a newsflash, as I obviously did not know you, so I was not writing specifically for you. What I was adressing was the dichotomy present in political positioning. When John McCain was at Columbia he said the ROTC should be allowed on campus and was booed.
When Barack Obama said the same thing, there was not a peep.

JHS · February 19, 2009, 8:34pm

Dbate, you are the kind of student I worry about a little. You seem like a nice guy, but, it’s true, you are not going to find much of a willing audience for your arguments against gay marriage at Harvard, Yale, OR Princeton. I think at one point you expressed a hope that there wouldn’t be a lot of students demonstrating for gay rights at those schools. That may happen from time to time, but what’s way more important is that you will find a lot of students, faculty, and staff LIVING gay rights on a day-to-day basis. It’s something that people care really strongly about, as the exclusion of ROTC from some schools shows. Organizations that do not permit participation by homosexuals who are out are not welcome, period.

If that is profoundly upsetting to you, you are going to have a problem at northeastern elistist institutions. Gay rights are popular even with conservatives there. There are plenty of gay conservatives, and most of the social conservatives tend more towards libertarianism than religious-based positions.

_rentof2 · February 19, 2009, 8:35pm

Doesn’t the old, completely pointless liberal/conservative mud-slinging on internet message boards just feel SO tired?

One day, one day, one day, may we move on to other things. ::::dreaming::::

emeraldkity4 · February 19, 2009, 8:36pm

*At the same time I was overjoyed that Princeton allows ROTC on campus, if I had the choice between a school like Princeton and Yale I think I would choose Princeton, bc the brave men and women who lead our military should never be insulted in such a manner. *

While my daughters school has had ROTC on campus- and currently does not- I do not follow that not having ROTC on campus means that the military is being insulted in some way.

The problem I would have about ROTC, is that students I have heard about, have joined, not being able to afford the college in anyway otherwise, but then having to drop out of ROTC, because of academic/health issues, and then falling into great debt because of it.

But I also don’t believe, you need to join ROTC to participate in the military. Virtually none of the people I have known who have spent time in the military, some 20 yrs +, did ROTC.

Dbate · February 19, 2009, 8:43pm

My problem is not the living of gay rights, but the expousing of such views on others. I personally know and have worked with gay people so I know that people live such a way and I have absolutely no problem with that. What I have a problem with is when people scream or yell at someone because they say homosexuality is wrong.

It seems a better method would be to lobby Congress to change the policy as opposed to barring ROTC. I don’t think homosexuals are any different than any other group so I don’t see the reason why gay rights even has it own definition. Gay ppl are american citizens, so by virtue they have all the same protection under the law so what are people complaining about. Regardless of how someone feels on an issue you can not force your opinion on other people, and to bar institutions based on thier ideological beliefs is close minded.

Dbate · February 19, 2009, 8:45pm

@Emerald, I find barring ROTC to be really offensive not because I am in it, but because it tacitly seems to dishonor the service that military men women do for our country.

winchester · February 19, 2009, 8:52pm

This comment by JHS in Post #171

“Organizations that do not permit participation by homosexuals who are out are not welcome, period.”

Proves Dbate’s point in #168.

The political philosophy that purports to be open minded and tolerant is actually the one that is the opposite of that.

Dbate · February 19, 2009, 9:16pm

I also want to state that post #168 addressed the general feel that I got from liberals on this website and to a lesser extent in real life, and was not meant to personally offend anyone.

afadad · February 19, 2009, 9:33pm

dbate; you are correct in your observation. Liberals (In general) do berate conservatives just for being conservative. The problem is, they are all for freedom of speech, expression, etc… unless you don’t agree with them. Then they get personal. Again, in general. Not everyone. I know quite a few liberals that can actually have a discussion and a debate about almost any topic. That is a bit rare however. When a liberal confronts differing opinions, they automatically get personal and believe the conservative is closed minded. They don’t want to hear anything other than; “You are right; and I am wrong”. And I think the problem is; and they WON’T admit it; but there’s actually a lot more conservatives than there are liberals.

The natural order has the younger generation ultra liberal. “We should be allowed to do ANYTHING we want, as long as it doesn’t affect anyone else.” Drugs, sex, language, anything. Hence the reason for so many liberals and ways of thinking in college. Then; as they grow older; get a job; pay taxes; raise their kids; get involved with civic actions; etc… they start to become much more conservative. They understand the difference between working for what you get and welfare. They understand protecting themselves and their family. They understand that there’s a lot more to life than just their individuality. This doesn’t mean they all become republicans. It just means that by nature, many of their beliefs will start to become conservative. They become fiscally more conservative. They become more conservative about their 15 year old daughter becoming promiscuous. The care more about right and wrong. There will also be some that hold their liberal ideals and some who have changed to a more liberal way on certain subjects. But overall, people become more conservative when they are the “WORKING CLASS” who is paying for all these social programs, worried about their family’s safety, and trying to secure their future. And then; they reach the point where they are looking towards retirement. They are looking more at healthcare. They are looking at social security. In other words, they start heading back to the concept of having someone else provide for them. Just as a young person, they believed that their parents are suppose to provide for them; pay for their college; buy them whatever they want; but allow them to do whatever they wanted; so it happens after retirement. You EXPECT the government to give you medicare, social security, etc… Yet, these people are very vocal.

So don’t let it bother you when the liberals automatically go personal on you. You know the difference. It’s so easy to see. You can see a liberal and a conservative in a heated argument/debate over any topic. Especially if it’s a SOCIAL TOPIC. You can see the frustration on the conservative. But you can also see the conservative trying to get their point across. The liberal on the other hand; you can actually see their blood vessels ready to burst. If they are able to control that emotion, then the conversation usually hits a wall with the liberal totally turning off. The name calling starts; homophobe; xenophobe; racist; war monger; insensitive; etc… It definitely gets personal. And they will rationalize it with the belief that the conservative is closed minded and ignorant. It’s easy to spot.

Again; this is a generalization. There are extremes in both directions and both sides. I’ve had the far christian right pushing religion down throats and believing we’re all going to hell. And as I mentioned with my friend where we can actually have a good fired up debate and it doesn’t get personal. But generally speaking, I believe there is a distinct difference.

alh · February 19, 2009, 9:39pm

“I also want to state that post #168 addressed the general feel that I got from liberals on this website and to a lesser extent in real life, and was not meant to personally offend anyone.”

“What I have a problem with is when people scream or yell at someone because they say homosexuality is wrong.”

Have you considered, when you “say homosexuality is wrong,” how it impacts your gay classmates? Or the siblings of a gay classmate? Or the friends of a gay classmate? It is going to “personally offend” them all. And I absolutely understand that is not your intent.

Yankee_Belle · February 19, 2009, 9:43pm

JHS- I think you just made the point of the folks who said liberals are intolerant when you wrote “Organizations that do not permit participation by homosexuals who are out are not welcome, period.”
What about The Catholic Church, many Christian Denomonations, all Muslim Sects, and the Boy Scouts should they not be welcome? Why should you be the arbiter of which opinions are appropriate. There’s a whole big world out there filled with people who look at things differently. Perhaps you should become more open minded.

LAC mistake for a conservative kid?

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