Last Laugh???? Well hopefully

Parents Forum
181

Well, a Harvard degree doesn’t guarantee you success either. I know a handful of Harvard grads that have not done so well. My brother’s friend is one of them. My son’s Close friend another.

Though the name recognition and prestige that goes with Harvard is real, it’s not everything.

Oddly, I got my job opportunity last year pretty much due to my college affiliation—was told outright later. Where I worked, few school names ring any bells for the populace. Young woman with a UGA degree was shocked that a number of people had no idea there was such a school. Even with the football connections which is how a lot of flagships get name recognition. When jobs are scarce, it can make a difference.

182

Just bringing a class action suit, in itself, isn’t proof of corruption at Harvard. Just reading the details that come out is not proof. You do not yet have proof. Even if H loses, you do not know. You’re still relying on the picture someone else brings to you. Leaning back. The irony is, these top colleges want kids who don’t lean back and wait and complain.

H doesn’t say the kids rejected are equal to those rejected. They say things like, we could have filled th class x times over. MIT has explained the minimum stats that bring it confidence a kid could do the work. But in the same breath, that this is about more than “could do the work.”

In fact, many posters are here because they don’t know what goes beyond that. They’re waiting to be handed a better picture- and not showing how they, themselves, dig for that.

One poster here has said they have a number of family who went or will go to HYP- so what was the special effort there? Or was it the corruption you’re sure of? Sorry, but I think that’s a valid question. On what bassis is one distrustful?

To CD’s point, it’s NOT national science awards that tip a kid in. Nor is it just essays. It is the entire in your app package. The competition is too fierce for adcoms to fill in the blanks for you. They give you the chance to fill in that whole app, including your choice of LoRs. They want to see how you know your fit. Not how much you want this college.

You do not learn what a college wants by looking at Chance results. On CC, or i real life, you do not see their apps, the actual presentation, not just thebare bones.

183

Just correcting one thing, @looking forward. If Harvard loses, then yes, there is proof. That is the nature of lawsuits and how our legal system operates. The judge gets to decide by a preponderance of the evidence whether laws were broken-there are clear legal standards to be applied, and if necessary, appealed, at all levels. It is neither arbitrary nor capricious. How refreshing. I don’t think it should take class action lawsuits by students to bring some sanity to the process, but you may disagree, and as a lawyer, it certainly is good for the profession’s business.
While we await the outcome of the suits, we will place our blind trust in the apparently overworked and stressed admissions officers (who apparently leave often) who alone are able to ascertain the magic formula for admission among the applications.

184

No. If H loses, it will be on the case as presented, by both sides. That case, those specifics. Just as if H wins, it doesn’t offer a complete picture. So many times, I mind how we focus on what’s reported to us, what’s predigested for us. A slice. The details the presenter feels matter. Not the whole.

What many miss is that, in general, I’m a big fan of the Asian American applicants. Those I see have drives and move toward their goals, while also being grounded, having a life, etc. They do not lean back and seem like great kids. But you can’t take every great kid and especially not when you want geo diversity and balance in your depts (which includes in sub areas. Not all x ad y majors, not all from some narrow school district or region.)

That’s off topic, I know. But important to also recognize. Not just all the H ratings scheme minutiae some focus on.

What’s the real difference between “blind faith in adcoms” vs blind certainty that it’s all corrupt? Truly. Both are assumptions.

I still say, you want to know more, pick yourself up and look for more. Not dismiss your own needed effort.

185

Roycroft- but exactly how is the process hurting you? This isn’t like a malpractice suit where a surgeon left a scalpel inside your abdomen in a rush to get to a golf game. What blind trust are you placing?

You apply to Harvard, you don’t get in, you end up at Rice or JHU or Cornell. Do you honestly think that the thousands of kids who MIGHT have gotten into Harvard but didn’t have actually suffered harm that deserves monetary compensation?

There are SO many places in life where indeed you are placing blind trust. Blind trust that an air traffic controller isn’t drunk when he shows up for work. Blind trust that the conductor on your commuter train this morning didn’t fall asleep because she was at a party last night and stayed too long. Blind trust that the person sitting in the seat on your train right before you doesn’t have measles, and since you are on immuno-suppressants, you can’t get the measles vaccine. Blind trust that the police officer who stopped you last night doesn’t hate people who drive Honda’s with “Impeach Trump” bumper stickers. Blind trust that nobody spit in your coffee, or that when your co-worker says that her bad cough is seasonal allergies and not TB, it’s because she’s actually been tested for TB and it was negative.

I understand all these things. But how the kid at Cornell who didn’t get into Harvard was harmed- this I do not get.

And at the end of the day- nobody is obligated to apply to one of these selective colleges if the “magic formula” so offends you. Get a degree from U Phoenix and be done with it.

186

Oh the process isn’t hurting me at all, @blossom. I wasn’t hurt by racial segregation laws either, but I still object to them. I don’t need to have a personal stake in the injustice to object to it. The difference from the examples you cited, is that there are actually review mechanisms for public employees, or those receiving massive public funds, which helps ensure accountability. Worried about the police officer-file an inquiry with the police board, ask to speak with the police union board, etc.
Transport officers? Well, there are all sorts of checks in place regarding transport officers and inebriation, and the folks at NTSA keep track of and publish that data if you want to check it. Private citizens you are on your own in trusting usually (And many do not) but the difference is they don’t receive tens of millions of dollars in government funds, so perhaps you have less of a right to expect anything from them.
And for the record, I am not the poster who either brought up Asian Americans or broadly categorized those I reviewed.

187

Lol.
If you think it’s so impossible to understand, how do you judge it, in the first place? Wouldn’t you stand neutral?

And if you mean me, yes, that’s my personal reaction. I qualified it, “those I see.” But I’m not the one who brought up the suit, in the first place.

188

Conflating the bias against certain kids at Harvard (if in fact, that’s what the lawsuit reveals) is hardly the same thing as racial segregation laws. Again- the kids who might not have gotten in to Harvard are not going to spend the rest of their lives as day laborers or household domestics because of a lack of education. For every Harvard or Stanford that perhaps thinks that having a majority Asian freshman class is a problem, you’ve got thirty terrific colleges vying for those same students who are allegedly being discriminated against. Maybe 60. So whatever magic formula you object to at Harvard, I’ve got a little secret for you- apply to Vanderbilt, apply to Wake Forest, apply to Emory, apply to Pitt, Macalester. Was this the situation described in Brown v. Board of Education? Hardly.

The checks you are talking about prove my point about blind trust. The FAA and NTSB jump into action AFTER an airline disaster. A pilot doesn’t get a physical before getting behind the controls- that’s YOUR blind faith. If there’s an accident- someone will review the last physical, interview the bartender where the pilot was hanging out before the flight, check to see if there are sedating RX in the medicine cabinet. NOT BEFORE. Blind trust.

189

OP here. Again I will say I was referring to the entire process and no whether a kid got into an elite or not.

The changes I have seen from back in my day(insert old guy reference here) is that things are much more computerized. This can be good and bad. I didn’t have the Common App back in my day. I figured it would streamline the process somewhat and it did here or there, but because everyone is using a computer the amount of data from the students to the schools has increased. The timeframe has lengthened as well.

It is not just write your essay for the common app and get a couple of LOR and you are good to go. I know I am preaching to the choir here, but going through the college app process is basically like having a part-time job. Especially if you are on the hunt for merit or if you have your heart set on a selective school.

OK I will be the first to say that if I had done a little more research I could have lessened the workload a bit, but not by a ton. I had a friend who went through the process the year before me with her D18. One thing that stuck with me was when my friend referenced the amount of essays her D18 had to write. Most of all of us know if you want merit it comes with additional essay(s) at many schools. Then you have the schools that say hey come visit and we will give you $2-3K in scholarship money. We did one of those visits. D19 got a medal and felt like she was getting a participation trophy.

So let’s say you do all the normal visits then you do some apps maybe you have to make an unscheduled visit for a scholarship, because hey who is going to give up free money. Then you write all the extra merit essays. You round up your LORs. Then comes the time to apply to selective schools and you know they all have their own essays. Don’t forget those Merit apps are all due before xmas. You finally get done with all the apps and you think you are done, but wait you just won the opportunity to compete for a full-tuition or even full-ride scholarship. That usually comes with another essay. And you probably will have to interview with the school as well. You might get lucky to do a Skype interview and not have to travel to campus. We did both. This is all in Feb/March.

This whole time you are trying to keep everything straight. Everyday you get a crazy amount of mail that is a total waste. Excuse me Yale you didn’t need to send me a 100 page booklet you had me at Yale. Oh and now info is being sent in every matter possible. You are getting snail mail, email sometimes to multiple addresses and even some texts. Oh and if you are a normal HS student in 2019 you think email is a dumb way to communicate because you don’t use it now.

Did I mention you are still in school trying to finish your HS career. You are probably either in Sports/ECs or have a part-time job or both. Remember this started back in July before Senior year started. And I forgot to mention you might have been lucky to be satisfied with your ACT/SAT from junior year, but if you weren’t just add studying for the ACT/SAT and taking it one more time in the fall to this whole mess.

One other thing I didn’t mention if you are the parent. Have fun burning vacation/PTO days for these last minute visits. Good luck scheduling them around everything else going on in your household. Speaking of the parents you can easily become a super helicopter parent(think Airwolf and Blue Thunder 80s TV shows) making sure everything is done on time and well enough. Also you realize through some research or talking to someone that a school would be perfect for your child. It would meet all the child’s needs for academics and your pocketbook. You pitch it to your child and he/she is like that sounds terrible. You beg and plead to get them to apply. Make them write more essays when they are so done or they don’t really have the time. Every night seems at home seems to be a night where parent and child end up arguing about something about the whole process.

Along the way there are happy times. Your child gets accepted to places. You get some merit. You realize you would need more for that school. You realize that school’s tuition goes up $1500-2500 every year. Some times you might get a letter from a school giving your student a nice $2k one year scholarship. Merit comes in for #1 choice and it isn’t enough. You wait it out and write a letter in March begging for more. That may or may not work.

It is toward the end of March and things are becoming more clear. Still waiting on the selective schools. But wait it is now local scholarship time. Time to fill out those apps for the $250-$2000. Have fun getting your student to fill those out. They see $500 know it won’t make a difference, but you know it would be nice to get.

Then when all the dust settles you have to figure out if the place your student wants to go is affordable and did you get enough merit. Sure you can go by the philosophy of don’t apply to schools that you can’t afford, but when merit is in play you can’t always do that. Plus if you did get into a few selectives you are never sure what they will give you.

I know everyone didn’t have all this in their process. Some kids really take to the process and get things done. Some of you have a family dynamic where there aren’t many arguments. Some kids apply to 2-3 schools. Some parents can tell the kids to apply wherever they want because they got the money covered. The thing is we all have a different story. Just like we all have different kids. It is great if the process is smooth for you. For us that have to try to get as much money at the best possible school the process can be tough. There are things I will do differently with D23. I learned my lesson. I do think the schools could make it easier for the families.

190

Not doubting you, gpo. But that’s neither how it was for us nor a common complaint I’ve seen on CC.

191

Getting money, substantial amounts is rarely easy. So it’s not going to be an exception in this process.

If your child had undergone this process for a selective preK-12 private schools, boarding schools, some other application, test driven public school or EC program, this is just more the same. And getting money to attend those can be far more onerous.

If your child has the resume to get into the most selective schools, have a chance for a lot those merit awards, it’s likely that student has some affordable options right there that don’t involve going down this rabbit hole that takes us through this “wonderland” of possibilities. It can be, for such students, nearly as simple as going to that public school for k-12. But when you want in, to a private “club ” and money, to boot, …well, that’s a whole other story.

My kids all had easy, inexpensive colleges available to them, but they chose to go thorough this gauntlet. Some more than others as we had some athletic scholarship and audition situations in the mix with some of them.

Where it hits me hard is when I see kids who are in difficult situations in that their parents are not able to give any assistance , can’t or won’t pay for college and there are no affordable local choices. I see some some cases here on CC and have run across them personally as well.

192

Have a parent pick. Have a parent pick. Have a parent pick.

Your kid does NOT get to veto the parent pick. That’s the bargain you make with your kid.

GPO- I agree that telling your kid about the perfect college which is also affordable and having the kid say, “no, a loser from my HS goes there, I am not applying” must be maddening. Which is why you get a parent pick.

No, it won’t be the fanciest, funnest, college with the best surfing on the planet and great sorority parties. No, it won’t be whichever college happens to be the most popular that year among your kid’s friends. No, it won’t have a CW or Fox TV show shot on campus.

But it will have the academic program that your kid claims to want; it will be affordable even if your kid doesn’t get the max merit award (or the NPC’s show you will qualify for enough aid to attend); it gives four year degrees in four years.

Boy, do I have friends in real life- right now- who wish they had insisted on the parent pick. The kid who had to go to California (I live in New England) and didn’t get into the top three choices, and can’t afford the 5 places she did get into. The kid who said that only one college in the country offered the RIGHT program in neuroscience, and even after shaking the cushions for loose change, the family can’t afford it. Guess what- every single flagship U in the country offers biology, chemistry, physics, psychology, computer science and statistics- so ANY highly motivated kid can create their own “neuro major”, yes, even in their own state, imagine that.

Back when my kids were applying, a wise parent on CC told me to insist on a rolling admissions application in September, before the senior year classes and everything else starts to kick in. Wow, getting that first admission- even to a college your kid doesn’t want to attend, sure takes the pressure off. And if that college is affordable, and frankly, has better academics than the college your GC thinks is the safety school?

You’ve just bought yourself a couple of months of sleeping at night.

193

A million likes for this. I totally agree that it is a huge pressure reliever to have a an admission in hand early in the process.

194

I concur ^ 100%

195

@gpo613 I loved reading your post!

Another way to look at the situation is to realize you are working very hard but will get paid $100,000 - $250,000. When you see it that way, the $$ per hour looks pretty good!

196

When we visited colleges we insisted that the kid find at least one thing to love about the college- even when we all agreed it wasn’t a fantastic fit. Admittedly- there were some colleges where we were scraping the bottom of the barrel (college with the best ice cream! college with the library that let’s you bring coffee in to the stacks! college with colors that go with everything!) but we insisted. I knew too many kids who found something to hate about every affordable/achievable option and that was not going to be my kid if I could help it. I didn’t want to create the dichotomy of “Dream college is heaven on earth; affordable college which would love to accept a kid like me is like a root canal without anesthesia”.

197

You got that right, Blossom! Let’s hear it for rolling admissions safety schools! Thank you, thank you, University of Iowa (admission in August!) and University of Nebraska, (“Hey, we could actually afford this!”). We had a very stress-free senior year. After a couple quick admissions everything else was gravy. Actually visited Uof Iowa twice and loved it. Would have been perfectly happy there. Applied to schools where merit was possible, admission was probable. 12 for 12 admissions. We let the big fish go and aimed where Naviance nodded. Even got my daughter to apply to a parent pick, just for the hell of it. D18 ended up at a fabulous school–for her.

I don’t think this process has to be quite as stressful as we tend to make it. And a key of course is finding a sure thing that could suit your needs.

198

“Data 10 is going on stats found. Not the qualitative process to be admitted. Value his input for what it is. Don’t try to impute more to it than is there. Your C kid won’t get in because Early takes a higher percentage. It’s not dart throwing. Maybe not your B kid, either.”

But Data10’s analysis is based on info that Harvard released in the lawsuit, it’s not taken from thin air.

“Although “How to Lie with Statistics” came out when I was in high school, I have to say that a correlation coefficient of 0.81 would be pretty convincing to me. I have seen much weaker correlations in Ph.D. theses that were attempting to explain a physical phenomenon, and were passed.”

This is spot on, correlations above .9 only happen in textbooks, an .81 in real life, if you will, is excellent, anything above .5 is considered good.

All this means is that if you’re an A student, and Harvard is in your top-5, you apply SCEA, no doubt. You do not believe the “there’s no advantage to applying early” said on websites. And as someone who has written content for websites, you have a lot of leeway in what you say. As long as you don’t say anything about other colleges, you can say whatever you want about your own (best and brightest, craft a class, need-blind, ED is no advantage).

199

Thelonious, a C or B stufent or one without the right ECs, writing, and LoRs, will NOT see an admit advantage in Early. There’s no special boost.

Again, the ratings are not the only considerations. Even for two perfect applicants, by those numbers, more matters.

200

I don’t see how you can get meaningful results by comparing the results of two totally different samples. If you compare the results of Set A (unhooked kids who apply to Harvard) in the ED round with the results of Set A in the RD round the students are the same, the apps are the same, the college is the same. The only thing different is the round.

If you compare **Set A/b and **Set B/b the students are different, the apps are different, the rounds are different. Moving Set B to the ED round doesn’t change their app, so why would their results be different? They’re the same student with the same app being considered by the same university. I don’t believe individual results would vary.