To which I will reiterate that I picked a heck of a month to be dry.
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I, for one, am thoroughly enjoying the discussion about legal careers and the various perspectives. It’s a very valuable conversation. In my opinion, we should be having such conversations about other careers too while killing time till March 
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I’ll add that while not a lawyer, I’ve worked as an expert witness with many of the tippy top law firms, both white shoe corporate and trial-focused firms. Generally I’d say that the really top trial firms have more impressive junior lawyers than the corporate big law associates I’ve worked with. That’s perhaps unsurprising since the financial upside (and downside) is greater when you are working partly or mainly on contingency. There are exceptions but the firm I worked with most extensively hired pretty much exclusively from moot court competition winners who were top of their class at Harvard, Yale or Stanford, and the next stop of the most junior person on the team I worked with was a Supreme Court clerkship.
For junior people in either type of firm it’s brutal work, with lots of drudgery, but the adrenaline rush of being in trial with billions of dollars at stake is unmatched. However if you want that opportunity you truly need to be the best of the best. And BTW, they also consider looks (will a jury like you) at least to some extent when making hiring decisions.
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There are many important things to say and many ways in which to say them.–from a regional university English prof. 
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Right or wrong, I think that’s many fields. And why some put their picture on their resume.
Given the dollars in what you describe, I can see getting the creme de la creme.
The corporate lawyers I’ve had have gone to fine schools - Emory, Michigan but also WVU, U of Pacific, UGA and I’m sure more - but definitely aren’t making that kind of money since their pay band goes $135k to $195k plus 20% target bonus (of which they can potentially earn up to double the target bonus amount - but it’s unlikely).
Just different levels.
Here’s what one article shows by type (as average). The lawyer defending The Donald went to Widener U, where my freshman roommate also went. I’m sure she crushes these salaries.
While I’m not an attorney, I’m sure the discussion above about million dollar salaries was kind of like the CC - the elite of the elite but not the mainstream. I linked the article below.
- Patent attorney: $180,000
- Intellectual property (IP) attorney: $162,000
- Trial lawyer: $134,000 (remember, this is average; trial lawyers especially can be sink-or-swim)
- Tax attorney: $122,000
- Corporate lawyer: $115,000
- Employment lawyer: $87,000
- Real Estate attorney: $86,000
- Divorce attorney: $84,000
- Immigration attorney: $84,000
- Estate attorney: $83,000
- Public Defender: $63,000
Regarding the law school discussion, it seems like everyone is just focusing on “Big Law” or corporate lawyers, forgetting about all the other legal career paths like plaintiff’s lawyers, civil rights lawyers, non-profit lawyers, government lawyers, academia - there is more than one type of legal career path and certainly more options than Big Law funneling into In-House. Many people become lawyers to serve the public (or their own or other disadvantaged group) and those who cannot afford to pay a lawyer by the hour, which is where contingency and non-profit lawyers come in. Many law schools cater more to learning litigation techniques rather than theory.
Most hiring at plaintiff’s firms don’t care whether or not you went to a “top tier” law school (and neither do the clients), just that you are smart, quick on your feet, hard working and enthusiastic about the work. Can you move a case forward? Can you take a good deposition? Can you craft compelling arguments? It’s the plaintiff’s bar that has to make a case, apply facts to the law, present your case to a jury or judge.
I’ve made my 30-year career as a plaintiff’s attorney, as has my husband, and we are very proud of the work we’ve done on behalf of the injured, the defrauded consumers, the wrongfully fired/discriminated employees and all sort of other vulnerable people. If you love the law and want to use it to help people, or further democracy (voting rights, civil rights, women’s rights, immigration law, etc) you don’t need to go to a T20 law school. All you need to do is go to law school to learn to think like a lawyer, get some internships along the way that allow you to get some experience in the field you want to work in, litigation experience if that’s what you want to do, or non-profit or government work.
The majority of the best plaintiff’s and civil rights’ lawyers in the country did not go to a T20 school, but when you see them in front of a jury or arguing a case in front of a trial court or court of appeal or supreme court, that’s not the question people ask. It’s all about what you do with that education and how you hone your craft that matters. It’s called “the practice of law” for a reason – meaning that you have to continually practice to get better at it, to become a more nuanced lawyer, to become a more effective lawyer, to become a better lawyer. Law school is only one part of it, 3 years of additional schooling, not the be-all end-all. Of course, there are firms who care more about “pedigree” because their clients (mostly corporations) care about “pedigree.” For those, they are stuck on where you went to undergrad, what was your gpa, what did you get on the SAT, where did you go to law school, what did you get on the lsat, were you a member of the law review? After you’ve practiced for a few years, and start to make a name for yourself, who really cares where you went to law school? It’s a ludicrous benchmark to get a job as a lawyer. The old joke goes: How do you know that someone went to Harvard (insert any other T20) law school? They’ll tell you in the first 5 minutes. Meaning they tell you, you don’t ask; they tell you, you don’t know based upon anything else other than that.
And hey - as a lawyer, you can always hang out a shingle, which is very reassuring when the economy is faltering, and I assure you, it doesn’t make a difference where your JD is from. One thing I will note, is that if you want to practice in a certain state, it is best to go to law school in that state because you will learn the particular laws of that state, which will be the focus of the bar exam. And there are also scholarships for law school these days, at many schools across the country, especially if you want to go into public interest law.
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I’m not sure what this means “worse still, just representing plaintiffs.” Are you saying that lawyers “just representing individual plaintiffs” are not impressive?
That’s certainly not been my experience as a plaintiff’s trial lawyer of 30 years who has represented plaintiffs as individuals, groups, representative actions and class actions. Living in California, practicing in Los Angeles, San Diego, Sacramento, and San Francisco mainly for the entirety of my career, the truly best lawyers I have seen in litigation are those representing individual or groups of plaintiffs in cases involving personal injuries, civil rights, bad faith, wrongful death, etc. Like you say, the financial upside is greater for the plaintiff’s attorney working on a contingency basis simply because the plaintiff’s attorney most often fronts all the costs and only recovers those costs as well as a percentage if the client recovers, meaning if the lawyer is successful.
I’ve worked with some of the best plaintiff’s attorneys in the country on individual cases (as well as multi-party and class cases) against PG&E (think Erin Brokavich), multi-billion dollar companies (State Farm, Allstate, Farmers, AT&T, etc) and so many others. Much of litigation, at least on the plaintiff’s side is art and requires creativity. Some of the lawyers on the other side were good, but the majority were very stiff, rigid, corporate, humorless, dug-in no matter what and just sour, always claiming that the plaintiff’s bar is somehow gaming the system, when our clients truly have the least power in actuality. These are just the ones I’ve personally encountered.
And just a note that the plaintiff’s lawyers I’ve referenced above (as well as many friends/colleagues who are corporate lawyers who are now in-house, who are heading up non-profits, who are judges, who made bank as real estate agents, who are retired and have been for a number of years) are those who received their JDs at schools in California such as Southwestern, Loyola, UCLA, Berkeley, University of San Diego, Santa Clara University, University of San Francisco, Golden Gate, McGeorge, and many more so-called second and third tier law schools.
I think it’s dangerous to generalize on this topic. There are over 1.3 million lawyers in practice in the United States today (about 200,000 in California alone). There are many ways to be a lawyer and to use a law degree. Everyone probably knows a lawyer, some are happy, some are depressed, some are hugely successful monetarily, some are hugely successful with the greatest prestige, some aren’t even working as lawyers anymore, some are writers, some are actors, some are artists, and on and on and on. Bottom line, no one knows what anyone else’s actual experience at any job or career is like, and generalizing isn’t helpful. Students who are interested in pursuing a career in the law should talk to those who are actually working (or have worked) in the law. Just my 2 cents.
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I will pile on here. I went to Georgetown law and practice in the flyover. I am one of the founding members of my firm, which is medium sized for my city (but small for the coasts). I am a “dirt” lawyer. I also have a niche practice that makes me, well likely the best in my state in the field. But, it’s a niche. A lot of what I do is repetitive. But it takes research and experience on my part. It’s lucrative, but you have to enjoy it.
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I know a lawyer who graduated from a law school that is in the 20’s ranking wise. This person became a managing partner in a very well known international practice at a very young age. They are wickedly smart, and they earn more money than I can comprehend. A good friend went to a local law school. That lawyer was corporate counsel for a time, then was a partner in a well respected local practice for years (now retired). While the second lawyer didn’t pull in as many millions as the other lawyer, they did very well financially. A third lawyer I know went to a state school on a law scholarship. That lawyer works for a small local practice, is happy and has the ability to spend lots of time with their family. There’s more than one way to look at things. Oh, and none of these now-lawyers intended to study law until they were more than halfway through undergrad. (Actually, the second one made the decision after graduation & attended law school at night while working full time.)
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My S has been in Big Law Litigation for 6+ years and has yet to go to court. He’s had cases settled as late as the morning of the start of the trial.
re: T14. It’s a term that the internet and law students use, but never been used by USNews. Technically, the T14 refers to those 14 schools that have been ranked in USNews’ top 10 at least once. So GULC is T14 (as it climbed to #10), but UCLA and Texas are not, even tho the latter two were ranked #14 once.
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My parents always said this about me because I was so argumentative from a young age. They were right in the end, although I tried almost every other possibility along the way. I finally decided to apply to law school when I was working as a temp secretary (I was a Kelly Girl, for those who remember) - after about the third firm they sent me to, I realized I liked lawyers.
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Yes, one of my former colleagues is currently representing an “individual plaintiff” named E. Jean Carroll, and I am so proud to know her.
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Everything in this is So very very true. “Spending four years working on a pharmaceutical company’s merger with another pharmaceutical company” Environmental Law? “No money, even less money” Immigration law? “No money plus its a bummer”
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I went to a T10 law school (it may have even been T5 at the time) and I genuinely loved law school. Smart students, smart teachers, interesting classes, fascinating group discussions, etc. I did everything you are supposed to do: law review, federal law clerk, very respected big law firm. I lasted five years then left the profession entirely and would never go back. I do think law school is great and I genuinely do not regret going, but being a lawyer pretty much sucked. I did get to “feel smart”, work with really smart people, and read and write a lot - things that I was good at, but came to dislike. Ultimately I felt like I was giving up all my time and energy and work and soul for companies and issues that I truly didn’t care about at all. I ended up starting a business unrelated to law, and I work with less highly-educated people, and I love it and I care about the work I am doing. (and, oddly enough, make more $ than I did in law). I have two kids, both of whom would likely make excellent lawyers, and I have recommended against it for them.
The only law-specific job that I think I would have loved is law school professor - but like all academic jobs you are then unable to choose where you live. You go where the (few and far between) job openings are.
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I know, right? That is some serious insider knowledge (immigration law IS a bummer!).
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I also held out a very long time before accepting my inevitable fate. The funny thing is I remember a phase as a kid where I said I wanted to be a chemical patent attorney. But then I was totally opposed to the idea for many years, not least because I saw too many unhappy lawyers (see video).
But then I was simultaneously realizing an academic career actually made no sense for me, practically or intellectually, while it also happened my academic research intersected with some legal issues. And I really enjoyed it! And I finally had the maturity to realize yes, this was my path to a decent profession–for me, as long as I avoided all the many land mines in the field.
That was actually one of the things that drove me out of academia. I got married to someone with her own successful professional career, and suddenly it made like zero sense to just go to whatever institution in the middle of a corn field would hire me.
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Coincidentally one of my closest friends started his career as a chemist. I can’t recall which advanced degree he received but it was definitely some sort of grad school. After several years trying to create a ketchup better than Heinz (he failed obviously), he went back to law school, and now does big pharma patent law. His main task is figuring out how to tweak formulations (or whatever it’s called) in order to extend patents.
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Just random anecdotes, but because I started as a science major in college and got into junior year before jumping to a humanities major instead, I actually had the college credits for the patent bar despite the lack of an actual degree.
I decided not to follow that path, but my science background actually did help in my DOJ job, and eventually my private practice. In fact, among other things I do cases which involve challenges TO extended pharma patents, from an antitrust angle.
So I sometimes joke that I started as a kid wanting to become a chemical patent attorney, and went so far around the intellectual world in my subsequent journeys that I landed on being an ANTI-chemical-patent attorney.
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If you can’t join’em, beat’em.
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And now my wife knows what custom t-shirt to get me for Valentine’s Day.
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