Thanks so much for the update!
I will say that this is the first I’ve heard of St. Olaf as being quirky, especially to the degree that I’ve heard it said about Oberlin or Macalester.
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Tsbna - Your question Given the major and potential outcomes, what would you gain by going to a reach vs target? and related comments are spot on. It’s a constant discussion in our family and many of our friends going through the same decision process.
- We could afford full pay at one of reach schools like BU but there is an opportunity cost for the family long range financial plan for us to consider that will impact the parents and the kids.
- More likely then not, she will want to go grad school so more expenses.
- Target vs Reach: We agree it’s just a continuum but in her mind she categorizes her reaches (Tufts, BU, and Wash U) as something special that the others don’t…the shiny star.
- She has visited BU and Tufts…loved them each for different reasons beyond just being in Boston. A very good friend is at Wash U who raves about so that is why that school is listed. We’ll visit more schools in the spring assuming she gets more acceptances so things will likely change then again
- ROI vs best for the student in the long term - We’ve long given up thinking we can input all the variables into a mathematical model and get the ‘right answer’. Cynefin framework …complex vs complicated.
- As this thread and the this entire forum has pointed out, a child can step onto a campus during a tour and within 5 minutes can decide it’s the best place in the world or i’ll never attend her. in half the cases, the kid can articulate WHY and in the other half they’re unable to or not in language the parents can understand (time to call in the family counselor).
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What kind of grad school? PhD programs worth attending should be funded, but professional school programs (MD, JD, MBA, etc.) will be expensive.
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thanks for the comment…we’ll follow up.
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The funny thing about this is - if it’s a rejection, it’s a high reach - and if it’s an acceptance, it’s a safety. That’s how it ends.
Agree - kids make decisions, sometimes in 5 minutes. Sometimes the first visit of the day is a yes and 2nd visit is a no - they’re tired. I’m sure why my kid hated Case Western. And then even when they choose the right school during visits, you sometimes find it’s not the right school once they’re there. So it’s definitely never easy. There’s a lot of luck involved because you never know if you’ll have a bad roomie, prof, or anything else.
Both my kids chose merit safeties over reaches they got into - I’m lucky as they chose them (not me). I simply gave a max limit (I’m full pay too) but both came in well under.
One works with kids from the school he turned down that was within budget (top 10 engineering but there’s higher ranked school engineers he works with too. He’s the one who told me b4 he started that rankings were to sell magazines and for parents and not the real world…in his case, he’s right). Had more job interviews than he could handle.
The other - I don’t know how she would do after school overall - because she applied to one job and got an offer and already accepted - so not sure if choosing her school in most cases would have been better or not - but it worked for her.
Even if your daughter goes to grad school, it’s unlikely for a PhD but it’s an interesting chart. The right side shows the per capita #s. You won’t see neuro so can look at psych or bio. Neuro is sort of a - well it’s interdisciplinary.
I can’t imagine a Tufts / BU full pay vs. a - Dickinson or Kalamazoo or Rhodes - will matter for grad school but that’s just my opinion. But saving maybe $150-200K might - that’s a personal call.
Best of luck.
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I would say that, like @AustenNut, I’ve not heard of St Olaf described as quirky (Carleton would fit this moniker better) - more along the lines of academically serious/wholesome, perhaps environmentally conscious, unless the intense music activity is what is considered “quirky” (about 1/3 students are serious musicians, whether vocal or instrumental.)
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I believe Whitman recently added a neuroscience-ish major. You might even look at western Washington.
However, in the PNW you have really great large state school options. UW is fantastic and UO pretty good as well. Nice to see UBC on the list.
I’d say in terms of facilities, programs, research those are superior to many of the smaller schools I see listed. You might consider whether your daughter’s instinct to opt for a larger school is a better path.
- Whitman - tripe strike of small town, small school, and along ways from major city (walla wallla to Seattle is > 4 hrs). The distance to the major city is non negotiable with her.
- Deadline for UW passed. We were pushing it but by the time she gave it more consideration it was too late.
- U of O neuro is safety.
- UBC - she loves BC but the school is massive and we’ve read school community engagement can be challenging. regardless a serious contender if she gets in.
The question of larger school with more research opps but larger classes and harder to make relationships with profs vs the opposite at the smaller schools is always in debate. But also the life skills she’d gain if she is able to thrive in the larger school environment. We’ve already seen during her HS career how important the teacher for her engagement level and grit.
Ultimately, large or small school, research opportunities and the ability to engage professors will be there but very dependent upon the student.
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Yeah, makes sense on Whitman. It’s way out there. Wasn’t sure how crucial that was.
On the faculty engagement, my experience with kids who went to larger schools is that it’s there if the students want it. Attending office hours, etc., can lead to great relationships with profs and grad students. And since there’s often more funded research going on at larger schools there are more opportunities to work with faculty. Just food for thought, there are pros and cons to everything.
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What about University of Puget Sound? Nice size, probably the right political atmosphere, in Tacoma, etc. And I’m guessing it would be a safety, which could come with merit?
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Some small schools with popular neuroscience programs that your D may want to investigate include:
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Trinity U. (TX): About 2500 undergrads at this San Antonio school. RD deadline of 2/1. 28% admit rate, offers generous merit aid to strong applicants as it builds its national profile (it has a big endowment). I’m not sure if I’ve ever heard anyone say something negative about this school.
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Trinity College (CT), already mentioned: About 2200 undergrads. RD deadline of 1/17. Why us essay is optional. 34% admission rate. Located in Hartford, a capital city, and 1h45m to Boston, 1h40m to Providence, and 2h30m to Manhattan.
If your D becomes less squeamish about “less than 2k” undergrads, then two other schools that would be worthy of consideration include:
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College of Wooster (OH): RD deadline of 2/15. About 1900 undergrads in a town just over an hour from Cleveland. It has a good reputation for academics and grad school prep, too. Very generous with merit aid. 54% admit rate.
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Lake Forest College (IL): EA2 deadline of January 15, RD deadline of 2/15. About 1800 undergrads at this school in a suburb of Chicago.
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I note Rhodes is also very close to 2000.
I think the updated list is looking good, but if I was going to re-pitch one of the LACs I (and others) mentioned before based on the latest information, it would probably be Rhodes.
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I also think I’d look to add a likely vs more hard to get in. A few of the schools mentioned, included Trinity and Holy Cross, maybe harder admits.
Whichever schools OP’s kid picks (Trinity and Dickinson maybe), sign up for the email list and get on a webinar to show interest.
What does that mean?
Rejection is out-of-reach, not high reach.
Admission with affordability is a safety.
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It’s more likely for a Masters or professional degree than a PhD.
It’s really, really OK for us to stop talking about PhD’s for kids who are still in HS. Really OK.
It gives anxious parents one more thing to worry about (“what if the best fit/right price school for my kid isn’t a “feeder” for a PhD”) and it’s not just premature- it’s a little ridiculous.
Could be a good New Year’s resolution for the Old Timers. These discussions communicate to both kids and parents that somehow a PhD is the “next step” on the ladder in the way that junior varsity optimally leads to varsity. And that’s not true. There are hundreds of very fine careers and millions of happy adults who gave zero thought to a doctorate; and it’s certainly OK for a kid to pick a college without regard for whether or not that college is a Massive Producer of doctorates.
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deadline is likely 1/15 so may not have time to add more but my mainstream/apolitical/center to center-left kid liked Bucknell a bunch. It’s on the larger side of a LAC (around 3,500 kids) and there is a Greek scene but not to the level of a southern SEC type school. Seemed like a happy campus with happy kids.
OP wants schools within range of society. That’s not Bucknell.
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