Of course it’s bs. My kid took MV calculus at an elite school and he was an American studies major. He’s interested in government and politics; why would he have continued beyond? Indeed, research methods / stats is far more useful than calculus.
If we want to “let the market judge worth,” plenty of non-quant people make plenty big bucks. Again, it’s revealing a complete lack of sophistication not to comprehend that the head of a global PR firm does just fine even if the only math they need to deal with on a daily basis is multiplication.
“I also think the obsession with elite schools (that you so often rant against) is also partly driven by students who are not proficient with quantitative methods”
I’m not sure where I’ve ranted against elite schools. I went to one, married someone from there and sent 2 kids to elite schools. Remember? I’m the one you accused of being “fearful that others” (meaning Asians) were “coming to take my place,” accused me of being in an affinity group that often does well in college admissions and then coyly said you thought I was a “rich Catholic mother trying to get my kids into Ivies but not rich enough to buy the way in.” So make up your mind whether I’m obsessed with or rant against obsession with elite schools!
I think it’s very difficult to get into elite schools these days if you don’t at least have demonstrated capacity to acquire proficiency in quantitative methods. Maybe a handful of people get admitted without a strong math background and record, and they generally have extraordinary athletic or artistic talent, or a record of overcoming tremendous adversity. The other 99% are perfectly capable of learning multivariable calculus if they choose to. (As, of course, are many of the handful who don’t have a great math record in high school.)
Agree, but for the majority of people who are not aiming towards STEM careers (or med school) I do seriously think they are better served by probability/statistics and/or research methods in the social sciences. I myself loved lots of fun, abstract math stuff, but I really do think calculus is fetishized excessively.
I firmly assert that one can be a happy and intelligent person even if they have NEVER taken calculus (in any form). My HS didn’t offer it, my elite (top LAC) college didn’t require it for my major, and I never took it. I don’t believe that has diminished my overall intellectual capacity. Sorry, I just don’t see that as the ONLY marker that the grey matter is bangin’ up in the skull box
Did having calculus let him take calculus-based probability and statistics courses for a more in-depth treatment than he could have gotten without calculus?
Yes, statistics is more important for many people in many areas than calculus is, but calculus can help one understand statistics better, right?
I don’t really know one way or the other. He picked his own classes, as he should. I wasn’t involved in vetting prerequisites or suggesting courses. For his particular interests, I felt getting a good grounding in economics was a good idea, and we stressed that.
I don’t think that the purpose of education is always to take the very hardest course you can if a “lesser” course gets the job done in a non-major area. Better he focus in high level classes in his major area.
Calculus is a quick (down and dirty) sorting stick for college adcom’s. I don’t think it’s fetishized- but at many HS’s, there is a long and robust history of what the “most demanding” schedule looks like. A kid can be an intellectual superstar but if the HS curriculum ends up being heavy on earth science, AP Psychology, and Yearbook (a credit course in some high schools) it’s a lot harder to do a deep dive on that kid than the “Calc BC, AP Euro, five years of HS Latin”.
Should everyone take calc? No. But in my own, limited experience, there are a lot of kids who are applying for engineering programs who have NOT taken calc- even when offered at their HS- and then are mystified why they get rejected. You can’t go for the easy A’s in HS math and think you’re going to be taken seriously as a candidate for an engineering program. HS doesn’t offer calculus? That’s one thing. But a kid doesn’t want to take it because it conflicts with chorus practice AND kid is applying for CS or engineering? I understand the adcom’s logic in questioning the kids motivation on the stated academic goals.
Actual conversation with a mom last year: “Little Suzy is applying to MIT. We are so excited- we can really see her there”. Me “My son loved his experience and would be happy to talk to Suzy even though he graduated a long time ago”. Mom “Oh, little Suzy is pretty confident about getting in. Her team won the “invention convention” competition from school last year”. Me- “that’s terrific” (as I move away before my ice cream melts). Mom- “Y’know, the guidance counselor really discouraged her from applying. She’s not that great in math- but she’s got everything else MIT looks for”. Me- “Suzy’s a great kid- Bye bye”.
Seriously? My kid found his classmates at MIT to be dizzingly diverse in their academic and intellectual interests. But one thing stood out- THEY ALL LOVED MATH.
YMMV. Little Suzy about to become a freshman at another college and is leaning towards occupational therapy.
You can also add legacies/developmental admits or those who write so well it more than compensates for relatively weaker math skills to that list if we mean students who didn’t go beyond calc 1 in late HS/first year of college.
Most of my older undergrad classmates* and a surprisingly high number of Ivy/peer elite alums…including those within the last 5 years are what most would consider quantitatively challenged**.
One good illustration of this was a summer stats class for econ majors at H populated by a critical mass of H Econ majors and H grad students*** who were so worried and panicked about failing that stats course they massed outside the dean’s office to complain our stats prof was “too hard”. While it was a bit odd and difficult at times considering the Prof was using a variant of the Socratic method to teach stats, I didn’t think he was THAT hard. .
This included one who was admitted to two Ivies....one as a legacy/developmental admit due to years of regular generous donations of one grandparent to that Ivy. He's also one of the most quantitatively challenged individuals I've known and has never successfully completed math courses beyond pre-calc at his private boarding school until he was forced by his Social Science Masters program to take a Stats for grad students in the social sciences. And he needed a lot of help/tutoring to get through it. At our LAC, there are multiple ways of fulfilling the quant requirement without taking calc or even a quant heavy STEM course like CS for majors which would fulfill that requirement. He fulfilled a part of that requirement by taking the computers/Internet for dummies type class for non-majors.
** Talking not knowing how to do everyday basic math such as splitting a restaurant bill with tip or checking to make sure the change received was correct without a calculator even if the amounts involved were multiples of 5 or 10. They would not have survived working running the cash register at a public business like a restaurant or stationary store if the machine failed and they had to mentally calculate change quickly enough to avoid keeping the customers waiting to be checked out and on their way. On the last, I speak from experience as someone who worked the cash register for a store from late elementary till sometime toward the end of 9th grade.
*** At the end of the course, I overheard one grad student trying to plead with the Prof to reconsider the C he was receiving as that was considered a failing grade in his graduate program and likely result in his dismissal.
Agree you’re not going to get into MIT without math aptitude, but that presupposes that MIT is some kind of universal goal in life. Don’t go there
What I object to is the presumption that a specific class separates the “better” from the “worse.” At what? The skills needed to hold a successful public relations event for a client are different from the skills needed to perform a statistical analysis of XYZ phenomenon. Plenty of people on CC who can do the second couldn’t do the first, but instead of having either the brains or the humility to acknowledge that there are all different skill sets in this world, puff up their chests and act as though they are superior.
On the subject of not taking calculus in high school and how that affects how rigorous the student’s curriculum is seen, it may matter if a middle school placement decision puts the student on a track to reach only precalculus in 12th grade, versus reaching precalculus in 11th grade and then choosing not to take calculus.
That may matter, but unless the school report or something else explains it clearly, it’s hard to see how admissions readers would figure it out.
My kids’ school – and indeed most schools of which I am aware – had a well-trodden path for students who wanted to take AP Calculus in high school but were not, in 9th grade, on a track that would get them there. They could double up on math in 9th or 10th grade to get them into pre-calculus by 11th.
At that school, the GCs would not characterize any student’s curriculum as “most rigorous” (or whatever the designation is on the Common App) if the student had not taken AP Calculus BC and at least one AP lab science (preferably more). I’m not defending that, just describing what was true. There were probably 30-40 kids each year who met that standard, so it’s not like it was terribly restrictive. Arts and humanities kids who wanted to apply to very selective colleges took AP Calculus BC and AP lab sciences.
It should not be that hard for an admissions reader looking at math course work of applicants (assuming for a situation where math achievement is important, such as for engineering divisions, or super-selective colleges) to see the difference between a high school record that shows:
9th: geometry; 10th: algebra 2; 11th: precalculus; 12th: no math
The first student did not reach calculus due to middle school placement, while the second chose not to take calculus or other advanced math (assuming that such courses are offered by the school).
We’re talking about colleges that can pick and choose kids who show the level of determination, challenges, and accomplishments the school wants to see. There are very few kids who stopped at pre-calc and get a bye because they’re, say, talented actors or oh so interested in history. That’s how it is now.
It will be clear to him or her that it’s not really true if a student says, “I couldn’t take calculus because my middle school math program didn’t place me out of Algebra 1 in 9th grade.” The student had a viable and often-used option to double up on math in 10th grade in order to be in a position to take calculus in 12th grade. What the student means is, “In 10th grade, I decided it wasn’t a priority to put myself in a position to take calculus.”
And JHS- if that student plans to major in French lit- I see no problem with a kid deciding not to double up on math in 10th grade. The problem is the kid with aspirations for a math-intensive program who didn’t prioritize “catching up”.
It is harder and harder to get into even second tier engineering (or math intensive) programs for kids where the adcom’s are betting that natural ability and hard work can compensate for having taken Calc in HS and done well. In our local HS, seniors often take statistics if they are leery about taking calc (or aren’t interested in continuing to struggle in math). That’s a great option- stats is hugely helpful to anyone who votes, is deciding on a course of treatment for a disease, is choosing a car and trading off safety vs. mileage, etc.
But a HS stats course is not going to signal “take me” at an engineering school. And the parents who are mystified by the kids rejection- well, take stats.
That option may not be as commonly used or encouraged in some high schools, and may not be available in schools that have switched the lower levels from algebra 1 / geometry / algebra 2 to integrated math 1 / 2 / 3. Also, taking that option means that the student has to know by the end of 9th grade that s/he wants to aim for something where calculus in high school is useful; not all students are ready to decide that at that point.
If that student plans to major in French lit at Yale – as one of my son’s classmates did – she would probably want to double up on math in 10th grade in order to take calculus – as the student in question did.
I’ve said what I have observed: Apart from very limited special circumstances, humanities-oriented students who want to go to hyperselective colleges do what they need to do to take calculus, and the colleges rarely admit anyone who didn’t. At my kids’ school, a decade ago, there was no student competitive for admission to Ivy-level colleges who had not taken calculus.
Has anyone observed anything different?
Unlike others, I am not arguing that this is right or a good idea, just that it describes reality accurately for many/most applicants.
