Let's define "unqualified"

<p>mammall:</p>

<p>I do not care to use earning power as a yardstick of the quality of an education, either. Too many studies, unfortunately, use it. The best known one is the Dale Krueger study that shows that graduates from state universities are as successful as graduates of Ivies. That study has been used time and again to challenge the value of an Ivy-education.</p>

<p>I believe the crack about Chicago comes from a much earlier period. Chicago nowadays is trying to dispel its image as the place where “fun comes to die.”</p>

<p>I, too, would not use future earnings as the ultimate measure of quality. However, I think looking at future earnings as a metric is important, because it raises the question, if a “better” education is not justified as an economic investment, then what does justify it? And is that justification worth the premium one pays?</p>

<p>That may be an impertinent, declasse question, but it’s not an irrational one at all. Many people other than I will look at it, and at the range of potential answers, and conclude that it is not worth spending the extra $100,000+ for what could be characterized as luxury consumption. I don’t think it should be characterized that way, but it’s not obvious why not. For me, it’s more like religion: improvement of the soul, which may or may not produce tangible benefits in this life.</p>

<p>Mammall, funny you should mention the University of Chicago (an institution I love, and the recipient of an enormous percentage of my earnings). A few years ago, it did a comprehensive, long-term study of its endowment and fundraising, and one of the conclusions was that if it wanted to remain a viable, elite institution it simply had to start admitting more students whose ambition was to be rich rather than to become a respected scholar or public servant.</p>

<p>JHS:</p>

<p>I agree that earning power has to be taken into account. But the quality of an education is necessarily not tied to its cost; it has more to do with in-state tuition vs tuition at a private school. There are some private schools that are just as expensive as HYP but that deliver an education inferior to that which can be had at top public universities, especially for in-state students.<br>
The instate vs. out-of-state, private vs. public comparison usually has to be the calculus that families must perform.</p>

<p>Post 322 certainly does put into perspective the tension between economics and academics at our nation’s most illustrious (i.e., faculty, resources) U’s. For me, it is not easy to resolve, as I know that some of the ‘extras’ (e.g., sports) at these places have a major role in attracting donations, which in turn helps fund non-loan aid to low-income but highly deserving & accomplished students who are not themselves athletes – or even, in many cases, URM’s. Such students unfortunately find H, Y, and P an affordable place to study, as opposed to U of Chicago. Secondly, having attractions such as sports does (like the arts) attract a variety of personalities & varieties of interests which for some students is an important aspect of personal growth during those 4 years.</p>

<p>Marite, </p>

<p>I was a bit surprised that epiphany included you in her list of parents contributing to what she describes as “similar understandings of what the stated priorities are for admissions consideration at Elite U’s.”</p>

<p>From my limited reading on this thread and the related one, your posts emphasized something quite different than those of Northstarmom, epiphany, etc. In fact, your comments regarding your son were similar to those of professors who recommended my son apply to Harvard and Chicago - neither of whom painted the picture of Harvard that I have read on this thread.</p>

<p>In fact, both told my son they thought he would be happiest at Harvard - because it was <em>not</em> full of focused, competitive, high achieving students. Instead, in their opinion, it was full of bright, intellectual students with a variety of interests who love to ponder, discuss, research any/all of them. </p>

<p>But, it is disappointing how some posters continue to insist that there is no place for these latter students at Harvard and “put down” such students in the same posts. </p>

<p>I’m just trying to discern the “truth”. Quite frankly, if NSM and epiphany’s veiw of Harvard is correct - that ALL students are as they describe, it’s probably not the best place for my son - he’ll apply instead to Chicago and others. </p>

<p>And, for those who have “no problem” with the views stated in the article epiphany linked - I can only express disappointment and dismay. Hasn’t history shown us that such views can never be tolerated? </p>

<p>We have nothing “invested” in any school at the present time. I’m just trying to find the best match of “peers” for him. I have my doubts regarding the accuracy of some posters “opinions” of Harvard. I don’t doubt that they were the students they describe or that there are similar students there - but “all” or even a “majority” - I remain unconvinced. </p>

<p>Would the real Harvard please stand up?</p>

<p>JHS wirote: “funny you should mention the University of Chicago (an institution I love, and the recipient of an enormous percentage of my earnings). A few years ago, it did a comprehensive, long-term study of its endowment and fundraising, and one of the conclusions was that if it wanted to remain a viable, elite institution it simply had to start admitting more students whose ambition was to be rich rather than to become a respected scholar or public servant.”</p>

<p>Says something about the goals of “most people” doesn’t it? How disappointing! Maybe those focused on “becoming rich” should read the Krueger study and save their tuition!</p>

<p>Reflectivemom, perhaps I misunderstand you. I read your posts & it seems as if you are assuming people who like the New Yorker article agree that keeping Jews out of Harvard was a good thing. I haven’t been on CC that long, but I am quite certain that neither Epiphany nor Curmudgeon are anti-Semitic!</p>

<p>If when you speak of views that should “never be tolerated” you mean a respect for and an openness to qualities other than academic strengths, I would not agree.</p>

<p>In my experience, Harvard is not monolithic. There are incredibly driven folks there, even if their energies are not fully engaged in their studies. And sometimes, those non-academic pursuits are the basis of their future success. For example, David Halberstam has been quoted as saying that at Harvard, he “majored” in the Crimson. Others, whose passion was sports, have become coaches. Ted Donato, the hockey coach, was a Harvard undergraduate who captained the successful team at the Seoul Olympic games. Needless to say, he did not devote all his energies to his studies that year, and perhaps others, too. Another young man I knew spent most of his time performing in musicals, though his major was economics. Then there are those who devote major time to their community service. A health program for immigrants that is still going strong today was launched by a Harvard undergraduate. Part of the students’ ability to be so involved in ECs has to do with the calendar. With exams set for after Christmas, some students can slack during the term and cram during the post-Christmas reading period (not true of those faced with weekly problem sets!). The calendar is being reformed, so we don’t know what effect it will have on students’ study habits and on their ECs.
And there are as well the students who spend 30 hours a week on problem sets or in labs, or who write senior theses that are of publishable quality sand are based on extraordinary research. In other words, Harvard is not any one school, one social scene, one type of students.</p>

<p>Yes, ^^ again (to SS’s post), the discussion had been focused on the term “qualified,” not on any other aspect of admission, such as previous history of ethnic exclusion. There has been an attempt by other posters, including the OP, to search for a <em>current</em> (not past) frame of reference for the term “qualified” as it relates to Elite U admission, & to define that quantitatively if possible, from an authoritative source, if possible. I provided a source (2 yrs. old, but still close enough); that’s all I did. The discussion on <em>this</em> thread is not about other aspects of admission, such as racial/ethnic diversity (or previous lack thereof), etc. Merely the term “qualified,” in current understanding.</p>

<p>I am not in any way, shape, or form responsible for admissions policies, past or present, at the nation’s Elite Universities. But again, approval & disapproval of admissions policies was not what was being discussed, merely specificities of “qualified.”</p>

<p>SS, the article portrays an “admission criteria” based on the goal of reducing access to the schools by certain groups. That this is the basis of the “criteria” still in use today - and according to the linked article “still the same system that the Ivy League uses to this day” - is what I believe should “never be tolerated”. </p>

<p>And, sadly, history has shown what can happen when those who are not anti-semitic or those who are not racists tolerate the actions of those who are.</p>

<p>“The same system” (today) does not equal the calculated ethnic exclusion “system” used previously. What was being referred to was the examination of potential for success & societal impact (which could cover a broad spectrum, from a future researcher to a publisher or civic leader), in addition to academic accomplishment & potential.</p>

<p>Additionally noting that neither one of my own children has applied, or will apply, to H. Wasn’t/isn’t particularly the campus for them. Older D applied to other Ivies & was accepted. Had she not received one Early acceptance, she would have applied additionally to Chicago, which was on her original list, & which fit her intellectual focus. However, even had she applied/been accepted to Chicago, she could not have afforded to attend, whereas she can afford to attend an Ivy. It is also my understanding that UChicago doesn’t have quite the ethnic & economic diversity that the Ivies do (proportionally speaking, that is). D appreciates the broad population range where she is.</p>

<p>Well, all selctive schools reduce access to certain groups. That’s discrimination. The vast majority of Americans would find a racial/ethnic quota offensive. You can’t control your race or ethnicity, afterall. But if a school values students who take part in athletics, or performing arts, or community service, kids who don’t will have reduced access. If the school appeals to you, it would be wise to showcase & bring along those strengths that the school also considers a strength. Now, if the student has none of those strengths, except for a srong academic record, it would seem silly to apply & expect sure admittance. And even sillier to complain that the school doesn’t exclusively value what the student brings to the table. There are thousands of school choices that would be worth exploring where neither the student nor the school has to pretend to be something they are not.</p>

<p>reflectivemom:</p>

<p>I’ll give as honest an outsider’s perspective on Harvard vs. Chicago as I can. I think Harvard is a place that is chock-full of bright, intellectual students with a variety of interests who love to ponder, research, discuss any/all of them and who, in the eyes of most of those who know them, are focused, achieving, and often (but not always) competitive (but not necessarily in a cut-throat way at all). The vast majority of the students I’ve met at Chicago are exactly the same way, the only major difference being that few if any of them were accepted at Harvard (in some, but not most cases, because they did not apply). The similarities between the students at the two schools far, far outweigh the differences, and by and large I believe there are very few students who would be happy at one and not at the other.</p>

<p>Around here, Harvard has the reputation of looking for very glossy, perfect students, with lots of visible, verifiable achievements. I think that’s not entirely true (and not entirely true here, either), but I think it is true that Harvard has a lot of such students, more perhaps than anywhere else. Other people on CC would say the same thing about Yale, and see Harvard as more willing to take risks. I think the presence of such students in high concentration at Harvard creates the potential for anxiety among its students in a number of ways – how can I measure up? how can I stay on top? – but only some of them are really oppressed by it. It’s probably not more harmful than the slightly different brand of anxiety incubated at colleges where a certain percentage of students have been traumatized by rejection at their “dream schools” and walk around with big chips on their shoulders. (That’s certainly not unknown at Chicago, although Chicago seems relatively free of it compared to some other schools.)</p>

<p>In another thread, interesteddad parsed through various presidential statements at Chicago, Yale, and Harvard to prove that Chicago really does not value “leadership” as an educational objective (or admissions criterion) to anywhere near the same extent as Yale and Harvard. He convinced me he was right, but it’s important to remember that the differences are relative, not absolute. There are lots of “leader” types at Chicago, and not everyone at Harvard was founding something all the time. I do believe that many Harvard students feel more plugged in to the Establishment than most Chicago students do. At Chicago, real power (even in the city of Chicago) seems elsewhere; students feel they are smart and well-educated, but must go out into the world and find their way. I think at Harvard more students have a sense – maybe too much of a sense – that the paths to power and success are clearly marked for them, and that they are part of a continuous stream of Harvardians setting foot to them.</p>

<p>That does NOT mean, by the way, that they are all conventional, or money-grubbers, and making conventional, money-grubbing choices. I know several recent Harvard graduates who are (or were until recently) free-lance journalists scrabbling hand-to-mouth for assignments. The fact is, however, that none of them doubted their ability to succeed, they had lots of models for how to do it, and using contacts and networking was second nature to them. (These were not, by the way, Crimson alumni who really had a leg up in the journalism world.) My daughter at Chicago is trying to do something similar, and she has gotten more practical advice from her Harvard (and Yale) contacts than anyone at Chicago seems to have offered.</p>

<p>When I think through the kids I know who have been accepted at Harvard in the past decade – 20 or so – I can’t think of more than one “pure dreamer” type – and the one who may qualify is the one I know least. Not all of them are dog-eat-dog competitors or #1 at everything – although a couple of them are – but most of them managed to rack up some impressive achievements beyond their grades and test scores, and all of them – every single one – was someone seen by his or her teachers and peers as being impressive beyond the norm even for very smart, achieving students. That includes all of the legacies – all the legacies I’ve known at Harvard have also been admitted to equally selective non-legacy schools. I haven’t known any recruited athletes there, though, or centimillionaires. (Now that I think of it, I know of one recruited athlete accepted this year who, while very smart, might be an exception to everything I just said. However, I don’t know the kid well enough to say for sure.)</p>

<p>One of the valuable purposes Harvard serves is to give kids like that a chance to be normal for a few years. Some of them have never had the experience of being surrounded by actual peers, and none of them has had the experience of having that many peers. Chicago serves the same function, by the way, except that the median student is significantly less polished, and no one takes seriously the possibility that the kid in the room next door may actually be President or Secretary of State someday.</p>

<p>SS, I agree with your own view on the importance of both the availability of choice and the necessity of applying strategies to maximize a student’s preferred choices. The U.S. gets praise from overseas for this – even for Europeans who never will attend our colleges – but just for the fact that we have such variety. We have everything from small colleges with niche emphases, to art schools with liberal arts majors, to science academies, to large publics which admit mostly by quantitatively determined criteria, to tiny, experience-oriented places like Deep Springs, to uniform-curriculum places like St. John’s MD/NM, to places like UChicago where undergrads can take grad-level classes. Who needs Ivies? Ivies are just another option for those that are attracted to that & think they may qualify on a broad number of factors.</p>

<p>Thank you JHS.</p>

<p>I very much appreciate your thoughtful reply!</p>

<p>Great post JHS! I will show it to my son, who is transfering to Chicago this year.</p>

<p>The New Yorker article, which quotes Karabel’s “the chosen” extensively, is hardly sympathetic to elite schools’ holistic admission. Just right before the concluding paragraph, Malcolm Gladwell said "</p>

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<p>The one reason why S put Chicago lower on his list was his concern, right or wrong; that the core curriculum would interfere with his desire to take advanced classes. His chat with a Chicago grad reinforced this concern. The grad talked of having to argue his way into every advanced course he took even when he had As in the prerequisites. S blanched at the thought of having to do the same thing. Of course, at the time, he was 16 and much less outgoing than he has become.<br>
JHS take on the similarities between Harvard and Chicago students seems spot on to me.</p>

<p>I’ll bow to your more direct experience with Chicago, marite. There have been some posters on cc who have mentioned being “welcomed,” even “encouraged” to take grad-level classes. It’s also mentioned, as I recall, in the admissions literature. Perhaps that opportunity has been overstated, or at least, in how it operates.</p>