<p>Oh, by the way, it appears that Elements135 is currently majoring in “business” at a community college, from which vantage point he thinks he knows all about the intellectual scene at American colleges and universities, and the comparative capabilities of students in various majors at elite schools. </p>
<p>Yeah, right.</p>
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<p>Which either means that the class was too hard for them (possible) or that they wanted a very easy course to tack onto their schedule, and any course that wasn’t easy wouldn’t have cut it (this doesn’t mean that the English course was really hard, just that it was harder than they would like).</p>
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<p>Really? Don’t know how many introductory engineering courses you’ve taken, but the ones that are at more than a “physics for poets”-type level are certainly not graded gently. Care to back up your assertion with some facts?</p>
<p>You are right in a sense that often people simply don’t take courses because their interest lies elsewhere, but try this thought experiment out: ask an imaginary engineering major if they want to take an advanced literature class. What do you think their response would be? “No, it’s too hard”, or “No, I’m not interested in literature and wouldn’t want to do the work”? Now, ask an imaginary comp lit major to take, say, a course in multivariable analysis. Think most are going to say “No, I’m not interested in the amount of work associated with analysis” or “No, I would fail.” I know, from personal experience, that most english/comp lit majors I know would say the latter, by far, and most engineers would say they weren’t interested. Your mileage may vary.</p>
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<p>First, programming is not engineering, it’s programming. That said, you getting good marks in programming courses means that you were…good at programming. What exactly is it supposed to indicate about anyone else?</p>
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<p>That’s nice, I’m happy for your kid. But the personal attacks there were unnecessary.</p>
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<p>Of course there are exceptions. There are exceptions to any rule. What’s your point, again? In fact, why exactly do you think this is relevant in any way? Unless I’m reading this wrong, UriA702 made a comment about aggregate intelligence, which would in no way preclude exceptions from occurring. Maybe I’m misreading, or maybe it’s that some English major is misinterpreting statistics… (yes, I’m joking, don’t jump down my throat)</p>
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<p>Grow up. Where he is right now has little or nothing to do with his opinion on this issue, and the pejorative way you wrote that post is something I find arrogant. Let me demonstrate why, by writing a similar thing about you:</p>
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<p>Sound nice to you? No, it isn’t. Think before you post.</p>
<p>Personally, as someone who is at an elite school, hasn’t decided between engineering and a social science yet, and who has been on campus long enough to know what people generally think, it’s pretty obvious to me that the hardest majors are considered to be in engineering, as well as math and physics. The smartest students (highest GPAs, etc.) also tend to be engineers, or mathematically-inclined liberal arts students (an economist last year, currently this year’s probably is going to be an electrical engineer). You can disagree if you like, but try to do it without insulting my credentials. Think you can do that?</p>
<p>Well, this is ugly.</p>
<p>Different things are hard for different people, let’s just say that right off the bat. I’m sure that some engineers find some liberal arts courses to be completely impossible, and I’m sure that some liberal arts majors find engineering courses to be completely impossible, as well. It’s certainly nice that we have a choice in our vocations.</p>
<p>As an engineer, I’m a little offended by some of the preceding statements. I worked quite hard to get my degrees, and I value what my liberal arts-educated friends contribute to society. What have engineers done to you, that you collectively feel the need to call us idiots?</p>
<p>I mean, seriously. I know exactly which bolt to pull to make your house fall down; I’d be a little wary about cheesing me off. 
Try to be respectful of your fellow human beings, at the very least, and remember that when you insult a group of people to irritate and negate one member of that group with whom you disagree, you may also be putting down other perfectly nice and intelligent people.</p>
<p>I kind of expected more from the <em>parent</em> cafe…</p>
<p>I didn’t say that introductory engineering courses were “graded gently.” </p>
<p>Re your comparison of “I don’t want to do the work” vs “I think I would fail”: in my opinion, it amounts to the same thing in most cases. The fact is that bright students majoring in humanities and bright students majoring in math/science could probably manage to pull out a respectable grade in a demanding class in either area <strong>if</strong> they were willing to do the work (and had the prereqs, of course). Whether either could truly excel in the other’s field is another matter.</p>
<p>As far as personal attacks go, IMHO the personal attacks are coming from those who are making blanket statements about the relative intelligence of humanities majors vs math/science majors.</p>
<p>Yeah, I made a perjorative statement about Elements base on where he’s going to school. I was very deliberately arrogant. Tough. That’s precisely the kind of crap he and Uriah are dishing out, and sometimes one feels like dishing it back. I really don’t care if it offends your sensibilities. I’m tired of their garbage.</p>
<p><em>I</em> know the difference between “engineering” and “programming.” I think you’d find that to a large number of people planning to major in some form of computer science they are one and the same. (BTW, my point in citing my grades in programming courses was very similar to that which you make: the ability to get good grades in courses in a discipline doesn’t necessarily translate to anything in particular. So engineering types who manage to pull a decent grade in some “humanities” course should not assume that they are now the lords of all they survey in that or any other discipline.)</p>
<p>There is no bolt to pull that would make my house fall down, so I’m not worried. </p>
<p>I value math and science, as well as engineers. </p>
<p>But I’m goddammed sick and tired of these blithe assumptions of intellectual superiority on the part of a few arrogant jerks here. </p>
<p>It amazes me that you are upset by MY remarks, while apparently finding the blanket statement that “engineers” have higher IQs than “art historians” unworthy of comment.</p>
<p>Or maybe I’m misunderstanding you.</p>
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<p>Woah, hey, now. If engineers are accused of not being able to do all right in humanities courses, but then they cite an example where they are able to do all right in humanities courses, that’s discounted… I’m not certain of how engineers are supposed to demonstrate that, far from being “lords of all they survey,” they are at least not as incompetent as you claim. How can we reasonably defend ourselves against these sorts of statements?</p>
<p>I know plenty of folks who double-majored in things like history and civil engineering at my alma mater, Rice. Both areas were difficult, in different ways.</p>
<p>aibarr, have you read the rest of this thread? I don’t think that you and I essentially disagree.</p>
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<p>There are arrogant jerks on the internet. It happens.</p>
<p>The solution is to state that they’re wrong, not to insult them and everyone like them.</p>
<p>And I agree with you, that there are brilliant engineers and brilliant liberal arts majors, both. I said, right off the bat, that there are liberal arts courses that engineers find impossible and engineering courses that liberal arts majors find impossible. I just happen to be on my side of the fence, is all. I know what it’s like to be an engineer, so I identify with engineers on this. That’s not to say that I’m not going to be respectful of liberal arts majors, or of any other person who pursues a certain field.</p>
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<p>And no, I don’t think that we do, either. And when Elements and UriA come back and whomp lib arts majors from the engineering side of the fence, I’ll still be the kid in the paddling pool waving her arms and saying, “Hey, guyyys, can’t we get along? Guyyyys?” You just happened to respond first. ;)</p>
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<p>My apology, I misread that part of your post.</p>
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<p>Insofar as IQ is a quantitative measure that puts a lot of emphasis on the kind of logic/puzzle solving/mathematical abilities that engineers tend to be very good at, I think UriA702 was probably right that engineers have on average higher IQs than art historians. Does that mean they would be better at art history? Probably not. Does that make them better than art historians at anything other than IQ? Who knows - that’s an ongoing psychological debate. But I suspect his assertion was true.</p>
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<p>Ah, I see, because dishing back their crap somehow makes you the better for it. Well, glad it made you feel better - there was an expense in that it made you look a bit petty and immature, but that’s life.</p>
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<p>Let’s just put it this way: I know essentially no english (doesn’t have to be english - comp lit, languages, art, art history, history, whatever liberal arts field you want) majors who would be capable of taking (and getting above an F or a D) the most rigorous introductory math courses (introductory means no prereqs, and in this case generally means single variable analysis or rigorous linear algebra or both, depending on your preference). I know many, many engineers who would be capable of doing at least respectbly in the toughest introductory humanities/liberal arts courses - and many do.</p>
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<p>…but I don’t know many, many engineers who would be capable of becoming amazing authors, or Pulitzer-winning journalists, or scholars in multiple languages, the same as I don’t know many, many liberal arts majors who would be able to design a microprocessor or a medical tower.</p>
<p>Linear algebra isn’t something you can walk in off the street and take, prereq or no. I think high schools prepare most of us, at least a little bit, for the math and science courses that we take in college, to the point that if you haven’t taken high school math, you don’t understand the language that’s being spoken in the course. With most introductory liberal arts courses, you probably speak English, which is the language that the course is being taught in. If you don’t speak “math” you’re kind of up a creek. I don’t think this is apples-to-apples, here…</p>
<p>(Guyyyys?)</p>
<p>Of course not, There is a limit to how much skills are interchangeable. I assumed, in speaking of these things, a standard background in high school math and english, which I think is about standard, no?</p>
<p>I’m going to say that in general, math and science get much tougher much quicker than literature and stuff like that. You can agree or disagree - my opinion is anecdotal and not necessarily correct. This doesn’t mean every engineer is smarter than every liberal arts student or anything like that, it’s just an observation.</p>
<p>In that case, 1of42, Princeton is doing a lousy job of admissions, because there are plenty of kids out there who excel at both. Either that, or you are grossly underestimating many of your fellow students.</p>
<p>Aibarr, obviously you get it. Good luck.</p>
<p>“Linear algebra isn’t something you can walk in off the street and take, prereq or no.”</p>
<p>You would be surprised at how many humanity majors actually take a large dose of math at LACs. My D, who is a 2nd year student at a LAC and majors in English, has taken Multivariable Calculus, Linear Algebra and Differential Equation in her first three semesters and is taking two math courses this semester-Functional Analysis and Set Theory. Many of her Econ major friends are even more advance in their math courses. To many of these kids, math courses are easy A’s to balance their more time consuming courses in humanities. I think it is safe to say that a seminar course in Shakespeare “isn’t something you can walk in off the street and take, prereq or no”.</p>
<p>Let’s put up some data and see where the opinions come from:</p>
<p>[Modern</a> IQ ranges for various occupations](<a href=“http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx]Modern”>Modern IQ ranges for various occupations)</p>
<p>[SAT</a> score averages of college-bound seniors, by selected student characteristics: Selected years, 1995-96 through 2004-05](<a href=“http://165.224.221.98/programs/digest/d05/tables/dt05_128.asp]SAT”>http://165.224.221.98/programs/digest/d05/tables/dt05_128.asp)</p>
<p>GMAT and GRE scores of differnt majors:</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwphl/philosophy/undergraduate/PhilosophyMajor.html]major[/url”>http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwphl/philosophy/undergraduate/PhilosophyMajor.html]major[/url</a>]</p>
<p>I am surprised at how poorly the education and business majors do. Up where I am they are quite strong.</p>
<p>The only thing that matters is the individual student. It doesn’t matter how well or how poorly a “group” of students does. You can’t rest on someone else’s laurels, and if you are strong in something it doesn’t matter that others in your major may not be.</p>
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<p>No, and perhaps I phrased that poorly. I am, after all, not a writer. I believe that if you have a background in mathematics, if you speak the language of math, as many kids who took math in high school do (regardless of whether they’re pursuing a degree in a math/science/engineering-based field… and I kind of think that econ is a little math-based, incidentally, particularly when it comes to statistics courses), then you’re reasonably prepared to continue in higher math courses. If you have a talent for math, you’ll be able to do well in these courses… Doesn’t matter if you’re a liberal arts major or an engineering major or what-have-you.</p>
<p>Likewise, if you went to a school that had a good preparation in literary analysis (I was fortunate to go to a school which provided me with an amazing background in classical literature, along with literary analysis, even though I’m a structural engineer now and don’t do a lot of symbolism analysis in my line of work…), whether you’re an engineering major or a liberal arts major, if you have a talent for literary analysis, you’ll excel within those courses. I think it transcends the boundaries of individual majors.</p>
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<p>From the IQ tests I recall taking, there’s a lot of pattern recognition and spatial analysis. Engineers are well-trained in pattern recognition and spatial analysis… More than the scientific principles and mathematics behind what we do, patterns are what we’re trained to look for. In looking at IQ test questions, I can feel myself thinking the same way, using the same bits of my brain, that I use in engineering analyses. I don’t think IQ is a fair indicator of intelligence suited to one’s profession. I think it’s unfairly skewed towards those professions that have rigorous training in solving those types of problems.</p>
<p>It’s been said that the only thing that the SAT tests is the ability to take the SAT. I think that the sorts of questions found on the SAT test the same sorts of concepts that are necessary to engineering.</p>
<p>I’m not sure what a good, consistent metric would be to compare groups of people between the majors. I’m not sure there is one, and I’m fairly certain that the SAT and the typical IQ test aren’t good indicators.</p>
<p>Just throwing in another interesting factoid:</p>
<p>Make of it what you will, but from my experiences concerning the education system of other (specifically European) countries, the US is quite unique. You can be the stupidest person in the world, and there will be a college in the US willing to accept you. However, in most European countries, the education system works like so: All of your secondary education is basically preparing for a single, huge test. In France, this test is the Bac. Should you fail this (incredibly difficult) test, you either take the last year of high school again, and take the test again, or you’re shoved into some godforsaken vocational school, off the radar of all of those statistics that judge the intelligence of college students. Clearly, this works to inflate our perception of the competency of, say, students from U Paris as compared to students from U America. Because we only see the cutthroat, balls to the wall grinders of European civilization in European Universities, we assume that they are somehow reflective of a country’s culture, etc.</p>
<p>man, if we could only test students matriculating to top 20 schools in math and science and say that THOSE scores were indicative of our entire nation…</p>
<p>but that’s a different debate. </p>
<p>i believe that engineering and liberal arts are like apples and oranges. it is really difficult (if not impossible) to compare the two on an objective plane, since both are very different from each other. knowledge of quantum mechanics is not equivocable to knowledge of shakespeare. the two aren’t interchangeable by any means.</p>
<p>The link to the IQ website clearly shows engineering students lagging far behind natural science, law, docs, and college profs. Well, that’s about 70 percent of liberal arts and sciences kids right there, isn’t it? ;)</p>
<p>Give it a rest, foreign guys who think they’re taking over. LOL. We ain’t buying what you are selling. You can take your “we’re superior crap” with you when you get your worthless degree from a worthless American school. If we wanted to be like you we’d sniff glue while beating ourselves on the head with a ball-peen hammer. I think after a while we’d be even. But it would be a good while.</p>