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<p>There is no such animal----Well, let me amend that. Such creatures are rare and magical. Zoosermom is one. Zoos, you have got to be the most un-Republican Republican I’ve ever met (well, sorta met:p). Very thoughtful and eloquent post, no.193.</p>
<p>Good conversation while I was sleeping! </p>
<p>Zoosermom, where are most of the undocumented immigrants from that you encounter in NYC? And have you noticed a change (in national or even regional origin) in the last 15 years?</p>
<p>Poet, you may be surprised at how many people who volunteer and contribute are republicans. There was a study last year (yes I’ll find it) indicating that republicans have a higher level of giving. My personal experience is that republicans are at least as likely to volunteer, if not more so. I’ve been a Habitat for Humanity volunteer for years (kids too, on their own), and that is the charity to which I make my one large donation every year. I’ve met lots of republicans volunteering there. My church has a large community garden and donates the food (which is a lot) to a program providing for illegal immigrants. The food is planted, tended, harvested, prepared, delivered, and sometimes cooked to a group that is almost entirely Mexican/Guatemalan by another group that is almost exclusively white/upper class/republican.</p>
<p>Renee,in my all-over life, I meet lots of people from China/Haiti/Domenican Republic/Mexico/Guatemala. In my volunteering life, almost exclusively Mexico/Guatemala. The Mexicans are different than when I first started volunteering – now they’re more likely to be indigenous people who don’t speak Spanish or English.</p>
<p>I’ll take your word for it, zoos, as you’ll always have my ear. I guess my perspective is partially obscured by many of CC’s self-righteous, holier-than-all-others, binary-thinking, self-identifed staunch conservatives. The callousness often displayed by them is nothing sort of astounding at times.</p>
<p>“Poet, you may be surprised at how many people who volunteer and contribute are republicans.”</p>
<p>Zoos, I’m glad you mentioned this. I was a little taken aback by poet’s post. It’s another urban myth that liberal democrats own the high ground when it comes to compassion, as well as morality (in the ‘social justice’ sense). Now, again, I consider myself to a large extent a liberal democrat, but I have resented the Left’s hijacking of the ‘moral superiority’ sphere when it comes to caring about others. People have different opinions & approaches as to what they believe “works,” and how/where to contribute time/ money/ legislative changes to achieve those moral & ethical results. Overall, I happen to feel that democrats put greater priorities on interventions toward those in need, & that there’s an important role that gov’t has to play in that, but that’s a subject over which reasonable people may disagree.</p>
<p>Poet, with my greatest respect and affection, may I suggest that sometimes liberals/democrats can define republicans/conservatives without really getting to know them personally?</p>
<p>I’m the only republican that many of my co-workers know and they would all describe republicans/conservatives in unflattering ways without knowing us at all. It’s been my small experience that the liberals/democrats that I know are more likely to write a check than get their hands dirty. I don’t think that applies to every liberal/democrat.</p>
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<p>I’m one of thouse callous people that you are referring to, I’m sure. Kindly disregard the, literally, thousands and thousands of hours I have given to various community projects and organizations over the last 20 years. I just find that when I try to converse with the liberals (as a whole, not specific individuals) on here you have to be more biting and cynical because they don’t hear you or want to listen with an open mind. There are conservatives out there like that also but I do have to say I’ve found liberals to be less open minded. No other group of people are so vitriolic when they decide they don’t like someone or something.</p>
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<p>Ephiphany, you’re quite right about liberals hijacking the moral highground, I know. I’ve been pretty miffed at times by many liberals’ hypocracy, condescension, and yes, binary thinking. The two extremes of the political spectrum are almost always wrong. </p>
<p>I shouldn’t have said there was no such creature as a compassionate conservative, because I really do realize that that’s not true. The type of conservative I had in mind when typing that was the Rove/Cheney variety. And some of the usual CC suspects, whom I can always count on to be dismissive, callous, simplistic and self-righteous.</p>
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<p>Nice…</p>
<p>So, I ask the question again - we can speculate what they will be like in future years, but given that we will have 12,000,000+ undocumented immigrants living here indefinitely, and there won’t be mass deportations or criminal penalties applied to employers who employ them, how morally do we choose to live with them?</p>
<p>Zoos began to provide an answer - enhance literacy services (though, she does note, not at government expense.) What else?</p>
<p>I’ve provided many proposals to at least consider, on several threads on CC. Literacy is front & center to my concerns & solutions & always has been on CC. I’m not going to re-paste the entirety of my comments here.</p>
<p>Mini, I think assimilation is the most important thing and in my neck of the woods, that is NOT happening. Ethnic ghettos are dangerous to everyone, and I don’t want anything but emergency services provided in languages other than English. Learn to function in English as part of the community.</p>
<p>I’m specifically thinking of Chinese here.</p>
<p>I will also quote from commondreams.org, which points out that preconditions to economic development & economic alliances between/among countries tends to protect better its inhabitants from exploitation (corporations, gov’ts, etc.):</p>
<p>“Yet there is another well-known path of economic and social integration that has been ignored in the debates over immigration in the US: the one followed by the European Union and their “social charter” calling for decent wages, health care, and extensive retraining in all nations. Before then-impoverished nations like Spain, Greece and Portugal were admitted, they received massive EU investments in roads, health care, clean water, and education. The implementation of democracy, including worker rights, was an equally vital pre-condition for entry into the EU.”</p>
<p>“Mini, I think assimilation is the most important thing and in my neck of the woods, that is NOT happening.”</p>
<p>Fair enough. So what should we do to aid assimilation? (Because they aren’t leaving.) </p>
<p>(Would you easily assimilate with a group of people who made it emphatically clear that they didn’t want you there? I don’t mean that rhetorically. If, as you say, we have a critical stake in their assimilation, it seems we have a heck of a way of showing it!)</p>
<p>First and foremost I would provide services other than in an emergency only in English. In my area (I try very hard not to generalize since I don’t live anywhere else), there is no reason to assimilate because so many services are provided in the native language. That is one major barrier to assimilation. Another is the lack of desire of immigrants to assimilate. They don’t view American culture and American life as desirable, and so hold themselves apart. I think that can be attributed to the fact that so many don’t want to be here at all. I’m not sure that I agree that they aren’t leaving/won’t leave, at least on an individual basis.</p>
<p>“(Because they aren’t leaving.)”</p>
<p>Some of them are indeed leaving. There have been articles documenting this in major media of late.</p>
<p>It is difficult to assimilate when you do not know the language of the host culture, when your classes are often taught in <em>your</em> native language, when your parents are functionally illiterate, and when there is little tradition of education in your personal heritage (family). Like it or not, education which provides functional literacy is more essential to success in the First World than in the Third World. And conversing & writing in the language of the land is basic to education. In fact, even for a business, English is now considered internationally a primary, “universal” language. Without English, one’s business prospects are more limited to one’s own cultural group. Witness the same in many Chinese pockets of population in the U.S. where similarly there is not the motivation to learn English. They survive well within their own group, poorly outside of it.</p>
<p>Maybe a side-benefit to the economic downturn is that their home countries will look more attractive tot hem and they will leave. Maybe when they go they will grab someone from the far right and far left under each arm and take them with them…</p>
<p>Yes, I agree that it is inaccurate to assume that they are not leaving and that employers will not be sanctioned for hiring them, especially in this economic climate.</p>
<p>Post 217:</p>
<p>lol.</p>
<p>zero sympathy. SHE STOLE THE IDENTITY OF A DEAD PERSON. SHE STOLE THEIR CITIZENSHIP TO COMMIT A FRAUD ON THE EMPLOYER AND THE UNITED STATES. IF EVER THERE WAS A CASE FOR DEPORTATION THIS IS IT. I DON’T CARE IF HER SON IS A US CITIZEN OR NOT…THAT IS WHY SHE HAD HIM SO SHE COULD USE THAT CARD. TOO BAD. SHE CAN SURRENDER PARENTAL RIGHTS AND LEAVE HIM OR TAKE HIM AND GO. SHE NOW HAS A JOB SKILL SHE CAN USE IN MEXICO.</p>