Lie, Cheat, Steal: High School ethics surveyed

<p>It’s the academic system’s fault for leaving us empty and cynical. And it’s nature’s fault for making the majority of us stupid, weak and/or lazy. I think everyone who wants to cheat should cheat and everyone who doesn’t should make his peace and just feel good about whatever’s stopping him be it morals, squeamishness and incompetence, or apathy. Why fight it? Useless. </p>

<p>Basically the material is 98% trivia, the process is boring, and people are people. Mind your own moral beeswax when it comes to stupid things like high school. Who the **** cares if you’re not valedictorian anyway? Life goes on. Stop being so insecure. Success ultimately comes from within, right? Go exercise if you’re so steamed up.</p>

<p>The people relating this to overall morality and all the ills that afflict humanity/have afflicted us since the dawn of time… you’re like… totally off topic and out of this thread’s scope, I think.</p>

<p>CSMeredith, thank you for illustrating what it is to be “amoral,” as opposed to “immoral,” a distinction made previously.</p>

<p>I would also ask how a discussion of morality can be off topic, when the topic is cheating?</p>

<p>As for history, it may be hard for you to believe, but this type of widespread cheating in high school, with no understanding of why it might be wrong, was not happening 30 years ago. Thirty years may be too long for a young person to fathom, but it just takes me back to my late 20’s. The perspective of people from my generation can be helpful, sometimes.</p>

<p>Other than that, I agree about high schools’ vacuous, boring, and meaningless programs, in so many towns and cities across the U.S. I sympathize, in fact, I sympathize a lot. Instead of cheating, it would be great if kids rose up in protest, or, at least, wrote their School Committees.</p>

<p>

Although I agree with the majority of your post, I <em>hate</em> when people just blame faults (whether theirs or others’) on society. Why is everyone so hasty to blame “society” or “the system” for everything? </p>

<p>Yes, it’s true – of COURSE our surroundings profoundly shape who we are! Therefore, it doesn’t need to be said, as it really comes off as no more than shifting the blame.</p>

<p>Now, if you’re talking about the fundamental flaws of a system and want to elaborate by saying how it could be IMPROVED, then okay, point fingers all you want, but DO something about it. Don’t just sit there saying “It’s their fault.”</p>

<p>I’m still on page 5, so it may be premature, but that kid who implies it makes sense for someone who wants to be a doctor to cheat and only learn Bio… wow. There are WAY to many ways for physicians to behave immorally, especially if they don’t learn anything but “Biology” during all that training. And there are increasing consequences that will be far more devastating than a bad grade or even In expulsion. 0TOH, the rewards of a successful practice go far beyond external reinforces.</p>

<p>I still remember taking a crayon in pre-school and my mom making me take it back. I THINK I remember it because that was an important lesson about paying attention to the feeling your doing something wrong, rather than learning to ignore it.</p>

<p>Interestingly, my academically challenged son told me yesterday that be was the only one among leis friends that doesn’t cheat. This specifically included sharing homework. This is a sophomore that is probably one of the smartest kids, but had a GPA of less than 2.0 a few mos ago because he’s always “missing” assignments. I was SO impressed when he volunteered that he “helped” friend by “holding him accountable”. This is a friend I have always worried about because of his desirable “popularity” but socially “fickle” behavior.</p>

<p>Some of you may know my kids sort of "accidentally "ended up at a pretty conservative “Christiian” school, whose values I don’t always share, but there have been several times when I have been impressed by my kids character, and suspect some of it might have come from the schools ability to make that apriority in their curriculum.</p>

<p>BTW; the assignments are missing because he can’t find them! A few damage he made 4 copies of something to put in different places and STILL couldn’t find one when it was time to turn it in! Ends up doing well on class and standardized tests though, so teachers tend to believe him…</p>

<p>I have never cheated on a test, but as an AP student, the homework load frequently leads to burnout. The problem with just not doing homework is that is seriously impacts grades, so I admit to cheating in order to avoid dropping my grade and alleviate burnout. More frequently, I am the person who is cheated off of.</p>

<p>What do you want ashfg09? A pat on the back because you never have cheated? Okay, congrats. You want to believe that you are better than me because you have helped society more? Sure, have some pie. </p>

<p>As long as cheating yields a positive weighted average when you consider the probability of being caught versus the magnitude of the potential gain, people will cheat. You too, mr. morals, if the gain is worth it, I guarantee it. And no, I dont cheat - I have never had to. But if the valedictorian status required me to cheat to keep it under my belt, I would, and condemn it if you want, but given the sheer number of people who cheat for my spot at my school, your criticisms would fall on closed ears. Have fun wearing your moral code that you say you have as a shield, I have more respect for people who have their eyes fixed upon a future and will do what needs to be done to get it. </p>

<p>Newsflash, HS is just a road to college. You have fun and learn the things you need to learn for college in HS, but really, the whole purpose of HS is to get on and stay on the right track for you. In this morass of flimsy truths, exaggeration, and cheating, if you fail to acheive your dreams, because of any reason, then its your failure. Even if it was because you werent willing to cheat in a way that harms no one. And dont take your anger out on the people who dont have their heads shoved up the honor code’s hypocritical ass, and do what they need to do to get to accomplish the things they need to. </p>

<p>Oh yes, and of course someone will say that I am perpetuating the problem by approving cheating even though i dont cheat, but look. The problem perpetuates because it just does - it has since the beginning of mankind. A few of you were talking about Rosseau. I think that all of that philosophy is derived from the idea that we always have self-preservation on our minds. If cheating rewards us significantly more than not cheating, we cheat - every man has a price. Maybe you would cheat to earn money needed to pay for medical treatment that your mother needed. So, the point is how can cheating then be cut out of the HS experience? Keeping in mind that we all care about self-preservation, schools need to make it so that the advertised reason not to cheat is not because its “BAD”, but because you WILL be caught and punished really harshly. That is what will reach cheaters - showing them that the probability of not preserving their academic lives is much greater than the magnitude of the reward. And follow through on it - design systems to catch cheaters, make teachers design tests that you cannot cheat on without being punished really badly. Turn the inclination to grab that reward around by playing on our inclination to not stick our foot in the fire.</p>

<p>

This doesn’t really have to do with cheating, but I just had to say that I really strongly agree with this.</p>

<p>

Haha. If you don’t know what I want [regarding cheating] by my… 10th or so post on this board, then maybe you’ve been missing something.
I didn’t say that I’ve helped society more than you. All I said was that you cheating on high school tests DOESN’T help drive society. You can correct me if you think I’m wrong. If you think you can do a good job of arguing that point and maybe putting some more words in my mouth, go ahead. I’d love to hear it.</p>

<p>Interesting that you said that you don’t cheat, yet you condone cheating. I think I’m the opposite. I have cheated in the past, albeit maybe 3 times at most, but I fully believe that it’s wrong. Do I get that it will get you ahead in life? Yeah, I do, so you don’t need to reiterate that same point again. Do I get that cheaters often win? Yes, I do, and it seems like that same argument keeps coming up. Cheaters often win. Okay, moving on.</p>

<p>The issue for me is that in that quest for the gold, a lot of people do seem to be willing to do anything to achieve, like you said above. Do I admire people with high aspirations? Of course. But I don’t think cheating is the right way to get you there. For example, athletes using steroids in competitions to win? Marion Jones? Is it fair for athletes who give themselves an unfair, forbidden advantage to triumph over athletes who spend months, years training and training and training to achieve their dreams? You say that cheating doesn’t hurt anyone. What about that person who is naturally better or better through harder work than another person? The other person cheats to get to the top, even though he/she doesn’t deserve that, because he/she isn’t actually the best.
Unlike you, I have a lot more respect for people who achieve their dreams through honest means and their own personal skill and hard work. Those people SHOULD get pats on the backs. And pie.</p>

<p>For me, the fact that there are people - and even you yourself said this - who will do ANYTHING to get to the top alarms me. Where’s the line? How far would they go to reach the top? Competition is ridiculously crazy these days. It’s sad how people “NEED” to cheat because they NEED to be valedictorian. I’m sure those people force other people to cheat too. And that’s also sad. God, what’s happened to this world?</p>

<p>Nick, you are making a very utilitarian argument for cheating, but there are limits to your absolute claims.</p>

<p>(in the extreme)
If someone figured out a 100% guaranteed way to murder every single student above their class rank, would it be allright to do it? It would make them the valedictorian with no risk to themself. That is a measurable gain, with no risk. Would it be acceptable? I would hope not!</p>

<p>Fortunately, most people do recognise some limit to “acceptable” actions. It seems that line has been moving further up the scale of severity. Where does it need to stop? Does anyone here think it should not stop?</p>

<p>The scale needs to stop when the individual feels that they arent comfortable anymore. There is no “set” point where everybody feels bad and they know they shouldnt have done that. Yes, even murderers often dont feel guilty about killing, they are just sorry they got caught. As for me, I personally would not kill anyone to reach the highest highschool rank. Would someothers, yes I am sure some would.</p>

<p>“Whats happened to this world” In today’s world, most people feel the only way to happiness is through money, or fame. Thus, the inhabitants of this world, are driven by that crazy competion to achieve those goals. Those goals are what is considered “successful” by society. If the defintion of “successfull” changed to a individual level, some people would be happy finding love and settling down to raise a family. Some people would work the jobs that they like, even if they are low paying. Yet some still would try to have jobs where the money flows freely, because that is what they consider success. I think if the people started to realize their own goals, then there wouldnt be cheating. Every person is unique and so cheating to achieve there dream would be like copying a different test, it just wouldnt work.</p>

<p>I personally dont understand how someone can just be okay with cheating. Lying and stealing dont really bother me, but cheating…idk, i just couldnt do it. It would make me feel like im really stupid and cant just deal with things on my own. If you cheat so you can appear to be a great student, youre just a pretentious ass. Then again, getting rich isnt my main goal in life, so maybe im just a freak.</p>

<p>I see what you guys are saying and of course I have a problem with cheating; I just think that everyone has a problem with cheating, and that doesnt stop anyone. People who dont cheat, like me, dont because the chance of getting caught outweighs the, maybe, 1 or 2 points I would gain by it. </p>

<p>(And sorry, I didnt read most of your posts, so looking back on it, I may have been a bit rash)</p>

<p>What has become of the world? It’s always been this way; my grandparents accounts of growing up in school were just as bad. </p>

<p>I’m taking issue with the method that is being used to combat cheating. Basically, what schools and people here are doing is being that guy who comes into a school of apathetic teens and preaches abstinence as the only answer because it is ‘right’. Obviously that doesnt work - same thing when people come in and tell a bunch of people that cheating is ‘wrong’. No one listens and people nod their heads and keep on doing what they were doing. “Drugs are bad, cheating is bad, premarital sex is… bad, mkay,” said the ineffective, holierthanthou whoever. That isn’t going to help the problem - which you might think is a huge problem, and I think is a minor one, either way. </p>

<p>People respond to fear and reward. The fear of being caught needs to be greater than the reward. The first step is to recognize that the only way to get someone to not take a shortcut on their “quest for gold” is to PROVE that there is a greater risk of being slammed down their ladder to whatever. Schools have got to prove that they CAN and WILL totally annihilate cheaters. Just slaughter cheaters - after a few years, the fear>thepotentialreward. And far less people will cheat.</p>

<p>Wow only 64%? That is so low! My school alone is probably all of the 64% haha.</p>

<p>I read all 12 pages of this. Many interesting points.
I think that the whole world is a rat race, and though I adhere to the “system” per se, in theory all these rules and regulations are mere suggestions for what a person living in society should do. As compmom had said several times before, it’s a system to keep order not chaos. </p>

<p>Many other people would like it if most people adhered to the system because the general whole will benefit, but for those who don’t, they don’t and end up kind of cutting their way up the system. </p>

<p>I may be the first one to say this I think. For some reason, I believe that in the whole context of things, any one anything is very insignificant over the course of human life. Cheating or not will not fundamentally make someone a better or worse person. Like it or not, this person’s behavior was pretty much already set in stone based on the environment and also genetic predetermination. </p>

<p>I personally don’t like it when others cheat, but I think deep inside everyone who doesn’t like it seems not to because in terms of cost-benefit analysis, cheating will not be in our favor for any variety of reasons (bad at lying, think that it’ll make you a worse person etc.) Those who do are feel that in terms of cost-benefit analysis cheating is totally worthwhile. Even though a lot of people say cheating is morally wrong, I think intrinsically these people don’t like cheating because cheating doesn’t work out for them. I’m not making broad sweeping generalizations here, I’m talking about this at a very instinctual level. </p>

<p>In case I didn’t make it clear I don’t like cheating. I don’t like to use others for my own personal gain. I don’t like to have personal vendettas against people. I think I personally try to stay with the system because despite all these societal turbulences and whatnot, most people will view what I did as “right”. </p>

<p>Then again I’m not saying I’ve never cheated on a test or anything. Like I forgot poster’s name but in my school cheating is a collective entity. I think the problem lay with not only the student’s attitudes, but the fundamental institution called education. I talked about not cheating but I guess the broken educational system to one of my friends, and we concluded that a lot of the problems were coming from the ridiculous amounts of busywork that were assigned. </p>

<p>I agree also that not everything can be quantified and so all the stats hunters are missing something very basic, when they’re ignoring this inquantifiable aspect of our nature. </p>

<p>I once joked about this once, but I think the best feasible way to admit people into college is to spend an entire day with the person. of course this is not practical but… regardless…</p>

<p>I also know that grades are not actually a good assessment of anything, but neither is anything else. Grades only measure the condition of a set person on a set day at a set time. It doesn’t account for the fact that that person will continue to remember that information.</p>

<p>Based on my sixteen years of experience (Take this for what it’s worth i really don’t care) I think this whole thing is a rat race. People do what they can to get ahead. You can follow the rules if you want. I try to follow the system and I utterly fail. I stray when I feel totally utterly chaotic and destable that I feel compelled to cheat I have done this at least a total of twenty odd times the last sixteen years. I’ve written trig identities up my leg in tenth grade and I haven’t really felt remorseful. Then again I have. I knew it was fundamentally wrong, but in that set circumstance it was “right”.</p>

<p>I also don’t like being judgmental. I believe in relative morality and in any sense the right morals can be a luxury to some people. A luxury they can’t afford. </p>

<p>Increasingly I find school and I guess through passive observation society is a place that constantly weeds out people. People they either feel are too incompetent or incapable regardless of how accurately that label sticks. </p>

<p>I genuinely feel that in any set of circumstances people try their best even if they claim they aren’t, people must have a reason they received such and such result. Even if they claimd they underperformed, under that set of specific circumstances I think it’s the best that they could have done. </p>

<p>I think no one has addressed this before about why many teenagers look for short term goals. In part yes because at a young age our ADHD like minds are trained to do so along with the media etc, but for me it is a matter of sanity. </p>

<p>Believe it or not, I thought for awhile or rather I “knew” I was going to Harvard. The whole process or whatever didn’t occur to me. I guess by knew, I mean I expected it to happen almost second nature. This previous bit is prolly irrelevant. As I said before, this point no one will disagree with, even though a given moment in our lives could be defining or significant, the overall effect will be negligible (like a function graph at positive or negative infinity). </p>

<p>So I tend to get lazy, or I guess not do all that is within my power moment to moment. If I disregard all external factors and focus on this one moment, I usually do the best I can. If I do consider everything else I GO INSANE! The volume of work I have to deal with on a nightly basis is insane. </p>

<p>This is the second fundamental problem I find with high school. High school is supposed to teach us to be good citizens, but it is increasingly becoming a pressure cooker for the highly enviable seats of college admission. This is preposterous! High school is not doing it’s job.</p>

<p>For more context: Six of this year’s graduating seniors have been accepted early decision into Cornell and a bunch of other schools. </p>

<p>On the flip side, I understand writing a fair test, or giving a fair amount of homework is extremely difficult, but I don’t think it’s fair to punish someone who is only a bit slower than another person even though that slow person is just as competent. </p>

<p>More random stuff:
On tenure… I think that this should be banned. It’s not doing anything and in my experience it is increasing incompetency. All the incompetent and virtually unfireable teachers have tenure at my school. They should not be teaching. We the students might as well be teaching ourselves. </p>

<p>Do I have morals? Yes I think so. I’m not a bad person. I’m pretty sure I believe in God. I think everyone’s entitled to their own beliefs. I won’t go up to someone and evangelize at them. I think every belief deserves respect. Yes you can expect me to be the first person to shoot down anyone who vandalizes anything of religious value. </p>

<p>I think this is what matters.</p>

<p>Conclusion or I guess my thoughts after reading/writing all this:
Cheaters will cheat regardless of what anyone thinks. Everyone is given a choice to comply or to choose their own lifestyle. The education system is flawed, but incompetency on part of the administrations have made it worse. Nothing matters in the long run because society is apathetic. (I never said people are). This is how things stand. </p>

<p>I propose the following:
Students should be freely allowed to evaluate teachers based on a self-defined set of principles and a well defined set of circumstances (like college). Student should have more input in the administration and governing of schools. The school is there to serve us not the other way around. (In other words, teachers happen to make money from teaching, but they’re there to serve us the students). Grades should be abolished and replaced with narratives. Yes this means accepting less people per school and hiring more COMPETENT teachers, but this is something they’ve been discussing for years isn’t it? Exams should be indvidualized, oral and given on a 1:1 basis. Students need to be able to directly regulate the amount of homework we receive a night. All repetitive mechanical homework should be optional (I mean to say is anything that is strictly a review of classwork should be optional.) Only work requiring innovative new thinking should be mandatory. Lastly our schools need more federal funding.</p>

<p>ENPF, I certainly don’t agree with everything you wrote, but many of your proposal points have a lot of merit (and should be discussed further).</p>

<p>I honestly don’t know a person in real life who hasn’t cheated on a test before (including myself). I do have morals, and I really don’t like cheating (it’s a much better feeling when you earn a good grade without it). It’s just that sometimes the pressure of maintaining high gpa, etc. has driven me to cheat a few times. Especially given the fact that everyone else in my school cheats and tests are sometimes based on curves…yeah.</p>

<p>64% is definitely way too low; people lie on surveys. I would guess it’s 95% if not more. Unless you’re a saint I doubt anyone has NEVER cheated on a test before. You can’t tell me that there’s not even ONE TIME when you peeked off of someone else’s paper whether it be in 1st grade or yesterday. I’ve done it before, and I’m not proud of it. In fact, I’m trying really hard to never, ever do it again. It’s just that the pressure and stress placed on high-school students who want to perform at the top-level cause even the best of us to succumb to cheating sometimes.</p>

<p>maybe the diff is i dont really give a **** about my gpa any more.</p>

<p>This article was just written to get people in a big fluff.</p>

<p>64% admitted to cheating. Ok, let’s think about that. </p>

<p>Even if that number is higher in reality, how is cheating defined? I’m thinking it’s probably defined as cheated once, and maybe over one test question.</p>

<p>I’ve done that once or twice, so I would be put into the category that I cheated…</p>

<p>…but I’m not a pro-longed cheater, and I doubt most of the 64% of kids are pro-longed cheaters as well. </p>

<p>And cheating off of homework, like vocab or something, shouldn’t even be counted as cheating. Most homework is just busy work… you don’t really learn anything from it. Everyone copies homework from everyone else. It’s an “I’ll scratch your back if you scrach mine” thing. And in the end, I’m sure we all still learned the material anyway.</p>

<p>asfh09 mentioned a few pages back that it would be interesting to do a study on why many kids nowadays have “lost their morals”. Maybe such loss can be attributed to the fact that they’re channels like MTV where people drive around with their parents telling them the “craziest place they’ve had sex”, or music videos that show stupid bimbos flinging their boobs around like there’s no tomorrow.</p>

<p>Why do these people get to be on tv for disclosing their nasty sex lives? Why do those dancers get paid millions of dollars to fling their boobs around? </p>

<p>Things that used to be considered immoral aren’t even looked at twice anymore. And, these kids that cheat usually end up being rewarded for it too. In the context of the educational system, what is the difference between our parents’ generation’s morals and our own?</p>