Lights out for Clinton + The Day After

<p>“I’m confused by where you stand. You continually quote people who question that AGW actually exists. That’s a completely different question from how to go about mitigating its effects. There’s no sense in discussing mitigation with you, if you don’t acknowledge the process. If you do, why do you keep wanting to argue its reality, and quote people who don’t think its real? Which place are you at?”</p>

<p>The place that I’m at is that there are serious scientific questions about ALL of the items in my list above - some more than others. To conclude that AGW is real, if true, is still insufficient to jump into a mitigation policy - see above.</p>

<p>Mitigation–start here:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/~cmi/resources/CMI_Resources_new_files/Environ_08-21a.pdf[/url]”>http://www.princeton.edu/~cmi/resources/CMI_Resources_new_files/Environ_08-21a.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Tackles the issues from the reality of what we have now, what we can realistically do, and what concerns should be siimultaneously addressed.</p>

<p>Basically, the idea is to stabilize the CO2 at present levels by dividing the triangle formed by a rising level and a stable one, into seven equal sized wedges, and then choosing from an array of technologies/policies, each of which could mitigate one wedge of the triange. It allows for lots of choices, offering about double the necessary wedges to choose from.</p>

<p>It does not lead to the end of civilization as we know it.</p>

<p>I am often surprised by people who think we can’t fix the things we broke. We’ve pulled it off with the ozone layer damage (good work, world!), and I believe we have the capability to do it with AGW, also.</p>

<p>

*And while we’re at it, why are they researching the mechanisms that make smokers get cancer? If we “know” it happens, why are we researching the details anymore? That proves it: the **alarmists **who insist that smoking causes cancer are full of it! We need to do more research before we do anything which might upset our economy. Tobacco growing is a big industry in America. * [/sarcasm]</p>

<p>Thank you, FF, for so clearly illustrating the point.</p>

<p>FF–Okay, you’re just parsing language meaninglessly now. Check if they think we are at the “just study, don’t do anything yet” stance, then get back to me.</p>

<p>Yes and didn’t all those Nazis smoke? Especially Hitler and his inner circle.</p>

<p>Hey, FF - check out this website for the 9/11 conspiracy guys: [Scholars</a> and Family Members Submit Request for Correction to 9/11 NIST Report](<a href=“http://stj911.org/press_releases/NIST.html]Scholars”>http://stj911.org/press_releases/NIST.html) They’ve got scientists and other experts, too. They’ve got withering sarcasm directed at the “official” position, too.</p>

<p>So why aren’t you jumping on that bandwagon — too?</p>

<p>“Thank you, FF, for so clearly illustrating the point.”</p>

<p>Thanks for the complete non-sequitor with respect to tobacco.</p>

<p>kluge,</p>

<p>I guess its too much to ask of you to keep the topic serious. Your insistence to mock people who disagree with you is a reflection of the strength of your argument and logic. Weren’t you the one who started a thread about keeping discussions civil?</p>

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<p>Heck, I thought a bit of levity as you “reinvent” the planet would be welcome. My bad. </p>

<p>Speaking about yesterday’s news, would the debate about the scientific basis of AGW not be … pass</p>

<p>Oh, Kluge, one last thing … please remember to turn the switches off when you leave this thread. It’s good for the environment and appropriate for the original idea of this thread.</p>

<p>“Barring some technological breakthrough that just isn’t on the horizon”</p>

<p>It isn’t on the horizon because we’re choosing not to invest in it. That’s a choice we could change tomorrow if we wanted to. This is an easier task than some other projects our scientists/engineers have successfully undertaken in the past with strong support (Manhattan project, eradication of polio, turning AIDS into a manageable condition, etc.).</p>

<p>I don’t know…there is a ton of money to be made if somebody can figure out how to sequester CO2, and people are spending money on it. It is actually very hard to do.</p>

<p>I’m not talking about sequestering CO2; I’m talking about, say, the next big breakthrough in electricity storage or wind generation.</p>

<p>IMHO,I believe both parties agree that we should be enviromentally more conscious. The problem is what steps do we take to get there w/o economically hamstringing our country. Logic dictates that in order to ween ourselves off oil dependency w/o suffering economically,we need a plan that implements an increase in alternative fuel sources. Whether it be hydrogen fuel cells, solar, wind, nuclear power. And yes even drilling for oil even if’s its only temporarily. To get from point A to point B w/o shooting ourselves in the foot so to speak. We’ve got to stop putting ourselves in a box with no way out. Where’s the common sense with regards to our energy policy?</p>

<p>Terpdad–in post 222, I linked to a common sense, thoughtful approach.</p>

<p>Hey Xiggi - no offense intended. I just thought that not having a Clinton to “kick around any more” (Nixon reference) would bum you out, and felt like kidding you about it. I have to admit - Hillary made it almost too easy for you guys.</p>

<p>You were right about the price of gas - then and now. It’s a shame that the excess is going to Saudi Arabia and Exxon/Mobil’s multi-billion dollar bottom line instead of being used to design and implement a solution to the problem. I guess ExxMob’s investment of millions into the anti-global warming propaganda effort paid off - for them, if not for us.</p>

<p>garland, were there any price tags associated with this paper? Just because they can develop a series of approaches to meet an end, it doesn’t mean that the price will be affordable. Exactly how much would a PSV field the size of New Jersey or a wind farm the size of Germany cost? And, that is what is required to provide just one of the wedges. </p>

<p>My problem with this whole thing is that the costs to do this will be so prohibitive that they will sink our economy and that the net result will be no change in CO2 emissions since China, who couldn’t care less about the environment, will gladly use its vast coal resources to provide cheap power to take on the all of the world’s production that is no longer economically feasible in the US and other industrialized counties. What is your solution to that? Does it not give you pause, knowing that even the IPCC hasn’t stated with any certainty that dire consequences will result if we don’t reduce CO2 emissions?</p>

<p>FF–Great questions! Here’s part of an article by Bill McKibben that addresses some of your questions on implementation (it’s nice to have a civil discussion on this, isn’t it :)):</p>

<p>

[StopGlobalWarming.org:</a> Carbon’s New Math: To Deal with Global Warming](<a href=“http://www.stopglobalwarming.org/sgw_read.asp?id=602031182007]StopGlobalWarming.org:”>http://www.stopglobalwarming.org/sgw_read.asp?id=602031182007)</p>

<p>But just reading McKibben’s piece–which is overly optimistic about costs–shows how very difficult this would be. First, it turns out that it’s not so easy to site those 400,000 wind turbines, because they have ecological impacts, too. Second, renewables like wind, solar, and hydroelectric, even if maximally employed, will provide only a fraction of the energy needed. To really replace fossil fuel, you’d need nuclear plants–lots of them. You’d need a total change in the current resistance to them. As far as reducing comsumption enough to make a difference, you’d essentially need a world-wide religious conversion on this point. I don’t see that happening any time soon; in fact, the opposite seems to be happening when you look at the world as a whole.
I’m not denying the problem; I’m just saying that I’m skeptical about the proposed solutions.</p>

<p>Well, Hunt, he does call it “the greatest test we humans have faced.” No solution is going to be easy. I think the greater point is we need to start working on them now. We have a greater chance of getting through this by starting to implement the easier solutions (conserving, wind and solar wherever possible, real money going into new technologies), and working toward workable, more complex solutions, then by wringing our hands and saying, oh well.</p>