<p>Oops. I think using a fake ID may be a misdemeanor, not a felony. But it’s still fraud, and that would still need to be explained in employment applications.</p>
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Well, unfortunately for me it isn’t just politicians who infantilize my 19 year old kid. My auto insurance company charges me a lot more for him than it does for me, and the rental car companies won’t even rent him a car until he’s 25, let alone 21, which screws things up when his car is in the shop. </p>
<p>And the people at Enterprise don’t seem like Puritans. I suspect they have data based reasons for treating him differently.</p>
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<p>Well, it depends on the state, actually. In New York, I believe it is a felony. But it is state by state.</p>
<p>Cobrat-- the problem with your argument, though I do “get” where you think you are deriving it from, is that the major lobby push behind the law which withholds highway funds from states where the drinking age is not 21 was the auto insurance industry. Also, this was the case with the seatbelt laws. So, while I see why you think you are right, you aren’t. The major driving force behind the 21 laws was DUI fatalities and the major money and push behind making the laws federally unified was the insurance lobby. this is just true.</p>
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<p>Please elaborate?</p>
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<p>There is a difference between law enforcement and colleges. Colleges, particularly publics, have to treat everyone the same for the same offense. Or, do you think that colleges (or student honor code boards) have the leeway to say that using a false ID to take a test is worse than using a false ID to go drinking, and should be punished significantly worse (than the standard alcohol counseling)? Can a NYS college really say, one felony is a slap on the wrist, and the same felony results in expulsion? </p>
<p>My “argument” is and always has been that without spending a lot more money per test (raising the cost), and/or reducing access to testing (undocumenteds, for example), there is no way to stop the cheating. Colleges know it. Colleges sit on the Board of CB. It is the price of doing business. The corollary to my argument is that punishment for perps will be extremely rare and of little deterrent value.</p>
<p>If you falsify test results, or your transcript, even if you are admitted to a university, even if you have graduated from that university, you can be stripped of your degree.</p>
<p>I really do not see how getting caught cheating on the SAT is any different than that.</p>
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<p>not only does it vary by state but the classification of the crime between felony and misdeameanor varies depending on if your fake ID has your own name and just misrepresents your age (usually a misdeameanor in most states) or if you use a name other than your own (usually a felony in most)</p>
<p>Yeah, I get that. But we have two types of perps in this case poetgrl:</p>
<p>1) a current college student who did not falsify his/her application records but is using a fake ID to take a test for a current high schooler. </p>
<p>2) the current high schooler who is paying someone to take a test on his/her behalf.</p>
<p>Clearly #2 can have his/her app rejected or acceptance rescinded for lying on the app (someone else taking his/her test).</p>
<p>But what about #1, the adult college student, who just committed a felony in NYS by using a fake ID? Should that student be expelled from college when s/he broke no college rule? (Again, most colleges do not have honor codes.) Should all students who use a fake ID be expelled?</p>
<p>Having a fake ID that is not a state or federal ID is not a felony. If the student used the HS ID, then the action does not fall under the Patriot Act. </p>
<p>In terms of HS and college kids using fake IDs to bar hop - many many get caught, and wind up paying huge fines to the municipality and to the local lawyers. Its a dirty little secret of many Spring Break destinations/Summer vacation spots, on par with sending many tow trucks/traffic agents to check for expired meters/registrations etc.</p>
<p>In terms of AP proctor rigor that someone mentioned - There have been cases of teachers helping out kids during exams. The system is not full proof here either.</p>
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<p>You would like to think that is how they make their decisions. But if they did, they would not rent to anyone over the age of 75-80. Car rental companies tried to limit rentals to the over 80 group, but were taken to court for “ageism”. Seniors have huge resources behind them to support this effort. 18-20 somethings do not.</p>
<p>We read about a lot of cases where spouses are trying to hire murderers.</p>
<p>Have people heard of instances where the murderer usually gets much smaller sentence than the spouse?</p>
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<p>Thanks. Your post reinforces my point. If they tried to limit rentals to people over 80 that means they likely have actuarial data to show that those drivers are more risky to rent to for whatever reason. THey likely have similar data regarding drivers under 25. Lobbyists affecting policy decisions is an entirely different issue. THe fact that a lobby was able to prevent the rental companies from implementing their desired plan for the senior set has nothing to do with their rationale for trying, or the validity of that rationale.</p>
<p>If you believe that their decision to limit rentals for kids under 25 has any other reason than the risk profile for those drivers, and its calculated effect on the company bottom line, I’d like to hear what it is. I highly doubt the people at major rental car companies are basing their decisions on some philosophical desire to infantilize 18 year olds. I’m sure if they knew 16 year olds were statistically as responsible and the same risk as 40 year olds they’d be more than happy to rent to them. As it is, their parents can’t even rent a car and allow them to drive it.</p>
<p>Momzie- one problem with using AP tests is that not all schools offer as many as others. Another problem is that it seems many more students get 5s on APs than high 700s so maybe theren isn’t enough score span on APs. </p>
<p>Regarding other’s posts on the cheating high schoolers. I think the paper said that the school will NOT be reporting the cheating to colleges the students applied to due to “privacy reasons”. This seems quite absurd and unfair. I wonder whether their scores will at least be resinded. If there has been a report on that I have not seen it.</p>
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<p>If that’s the case, then the school admins/teachers, parents, and students from those high schools have only the school admins/district to blame if colleges/universities start placing all of their students under a black cloud of suspicion. </p>
<p>How could they not get that using privacy laws like that will not be taken as symptoms of a schoolwide/district-wide coverup to protect their image???</p>
<p>School image is a HUGE factor for all HSs. Do you know Great Neck? I think they’d inform the colleges, especially if it affected their school image, but if there’s any kind of law forbidding that, you can bet they’d refrain from doing so for fear of litigation.</p>
<p>Makes you hope the colleges/universities are doing their due diligence before they accept someone.</p>
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<p>How do you expect colleges/universities to go about their due diligence if schools aren’t willing to report academic/judicial misconduct*, the college-board just cancels scores, and cheater students/parents don’t suddenly get a change of heart and honestly report their transgressions to the very schools they’re applying for???</p>
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<li>I would think that one of the school’s basic duties to be taken seriously is to report any serious academic/judicial misconduct of their students to the colleges/employers when that information is requested. It was also commonly placed on high school transcripts and GC guidance reports on each student.</li>
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<p>Remember, the SAT is administered by a private corporation. It is an optional test for which individuals pay for, and which individuals own (their score report)… High schools do not have ANY responsibility for the test, nor the scores. Sure, many high schools add SAT/ACT scores to transcripts, but they should not – due to same federal and state privacy laws – without the permission of the student/family.</p>
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<p>Since when is it the high school’s responsibility to help colleges conduct THEIR due diligence? High schools have enough problems teaching readin’, writin’, and 'rithmetic. :)</p>
<p>In any event, federal and state privacy laws are rather strict.</p>
<p>^ ^</p>
<p>In that case, I’d think it be much easier and less aggravating if the colleges/universities started treating all the students from that district with skepticism unless the school district, students, and parents are able to provide concrete assurances that it is only limited to an isolated few. Colleges/universities already do that with countries with high incidents of cheater applicants…why not apply the same to school districts with known cheating incidents? </p>
<p>You’re right that students/parents may own the scores…but colleges/universities are also not obligated to accept them as credible if there are reasonable suspicions the school/district they’re coming from has cheating issues.</p>
<p>Exactly! Colleges already shun some high schools for various reasons. Cheating would be more appropriate a reason to shun than any other. They can’t trust the GC’s report. How would they know what else GCs are coddling?</p>
<p>There are a few angles to this. Let us look at each party’s true motivation, and who the victims are.</p>
<p>First of all, CB’s goal is to make money by having as many tests taken as possible. Making it more difficult or more complicated or more expensive for them to offer tests will not come naturally, we can see, as they do not feel morally or ethically obligated to preserve the integrity of the results without pressure form their customers.</p>
<p>Who are their customers?
- The STUDENTS and their PARENTS, whose goal is to score as high as possible in the minimum amount of tests sittings and with the least amount of preparation and overall expense. And to get the students into the best colleges of their choice.
- The COLLEGES are also the customers, and to me, only they can play the big role of reforming the test system in ANY way: better security for more integrity of scores, restricting number of times test taken, whatever they choose. To survive, and be in biz, The CB NEEDS the colleges to use these scores, and if the colleges say they will no longer accept them from the applicants unless the CB does X or Y or Z, CB should respond, even if it involves more expense and complexity!! And the students and their parents will then follow in kind, following, ultimately , whatever the colleges ask for…
- The HIGH SCHOOLS are in a very odd position: their goal is to get their students in to as many colleges as possible, so honesty and security would not be a realistic natural expectation. So why the heck are they administering the tests? Yes it would appear to be convenient and possibly a good way to keep student ID;‘s straight, but that is not a natural motivation.
Yes, there is one aspect that should (but!) keep the HS proctors in line: maintaining the reputation of their school with the colleges. But reporting violations is needed for this to happen. The reports must include the students’ names and high schools and the colleges they are applying to.</p>
<p>As to the protection of innocent reportees and also how to keep the reporters’ scores intact, the key here is to make sure that the security procedures are tight and consistent so that irregularities are PREVENTED as much as possible, and that there are good records. To me, it is absolutely wrong to RELY ON and EXPECT STUDENTS to report cheaters, although I do admit THE STUDENTS have a BIG INCENTIVE to keep the results fair and honest. If the reporters feel protected and trust that the security is good, they will feel more safe reporting incidents.</p>
<p>You know, I do not care how much this costs; redoing where and how the tests are taken and monitored just has to be done. There need to be entry procedures with photos and thumbprints, and the test booklet is not valid without such proof. The colleges might even be willing to share in the expenses, by paying flat fees per applicant score reports.</p>
<p>Otherwise, the colleges should find a new way to compare the students, or just use a wholistic approach. These colleges LOVE to get so MANY apps to get lower acceptance rates, bot lo and behold, here is a result- they are just not able to look at the students as carefully as they should.
Anyway, INTEGRITY of the scores, the applicants, and of current college students is a basic requirement. So enforce that. Let the COLLEGES’s name be sullied when one of their students is found to be a cheater. Confidentiality- pish.</p>
<p>Once again, especially with regard to enforcement, but also investigation, we run into the problem of how the laws of our Land and the codes of our college/universities relate. Right now, the colleges have the power to independently protect, investigate, charge and report much of what goes on with their students and staff.
Maybe we need to take a good look at whether this freedom is such a good thing: student crimes, drinking and drugs, date rapes, child abuse by staff, mis-spending of funds. Whose jurisdiction should all this be in? Should there be a third party involved? How valid are the concepts of giving a second chance and of protecting the identity of young adult violators?</p>
<p>I hate to see a kid’s life ruined, but short of shaming and limiting options and putting it in their record, how do we create a DISINCENTIVE TO CHEAT IN THE FIRST PLACE??? The rest of the students who are “honest” are the true victims. The colleges should also feel like victims, as well.</p>
<p>p.s. Again more expensive to CB, but the colleges must also require that each test be unique, given just once, and never offered again at any other time. Sorry, but that is a given.</p>
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<p>I would be surprised if the masses of high schools saw that as their goal for existence.</p>
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<p>Simple: Money. They get paid for it. </p>
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<p>Again, not all high schools even offer to proctor tests, so it is impossible to conduct a valid ID check consistently. (Our district, with 4 high schools hasn’t offered to proctor the test for 10+ years. Thus, every student in our city must take the test in an adjoining city or at the local juco.)</p>
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<p>This is guaranteed to raise application costs and reduce access to poor students, something that colleges abhor.</p>