Louis Farrakhan and Senator Obama

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<p>There is nothing uncivilized about bringing to mind an unsupported claim against someone else. Civility, in fact, demands this. I think your claims against Wright are false, and partisan. They are quite as I expected. Indeed I knew that your opinions, rather than coming from well-reasoned and fair-minded analysis, came from Fox News luminaries. You have essentially failed to present actual facts and statements from Wright himself, choosing instead to present knee-jerk reactions from such neocons as Charles Krauthammer and avid right wingers such as Jonah Goldberg and Ed Morrissey, of all people. The Krauthammer piece as you’ve presented it failed to present any of Wright’s comments, but simply condemned them as racist, this, without proof. Essentially, Krauthammer has done what you now do. But merely because he does it does not permit anyone of honor to do it.</p>

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<p>The Snopes article does not define or clarify what racism is to anyone. It merely speaks about how some whites, upon hearing terms like “Black Value System” will unthinkingly hear anti-white racism whereas blacks like Wright would hear the term much as we do when we hear the terms “Chinese Value System” or “Russian Value System”. Of course I contend that whites who hear racism in this instance hear it because they hate blacks, particularly those who are angry about the past. They hear black militancy in these statements and as a defense against them wish to condemn them as “racist”. The Snopes article does not state the cause of the differences in perception, but merely that the differences exist in this particular case. In other cases of racism, such as the basis for why McCain’s friend Jerry Falwell condemned integration, there is no general difference in perception between whites and blacks. We all understand it as pure racism. Your article here is fruitless and out of place in this discussion.</p>

<p>Moreover, posting criticisms by rightists such as Jonah Goldberg is not the same as posting facts about the actual events under discussion. After all, it is not as if Goldberg does not have an interest in making Wright out to be a bigot. He is on the hard right and admittedly so. We need to see disinterested criticism of Wright, scholarly news commentary that presents Wright’s actual comments while preserving their meaning. You have thus far presented only heavily biased commentary from people who wish to find racism in Wright. You commit a dishonor to reason as a concept.</p>

<p>But I expected the statement by Wright concerning alleged learning differences between whites and blacks would find its way into your “evidence” of Wright’s alleged bigotry. And since Goldberg mentioned it, along with the “garlic nose” comment, we should look at the actual statements, not the falsehoods reported here by you.</p>

<p>I encourage you to listen to the comments yourself by visiting Youtube and searching for “Reverend Wright at NAACP pt.2”. Had you bothered to listen to the comments, as opposed to simply accepting wingerism about them, you would have heard Wright being very clear that he does not believe blacks are better than whites or vice versa. He is very clear that the two groups have cultural differences and that those differences affect the way blacks and whites learn and perceive the world (which fact in itself is true). I rejected almost all of Wright’s view as complete nonsense, but heard nothing racist about them at all.</p>

<p>Wright appeals to the scholarship of Janice Hale, professor of education, and Geneva Smitherman, professor of linguistics. The two scholars claim that the cultural, not innate, differences between blacks and whites affect the learning styles of the two groups so that blacks develop a right-brain orientation as opposed to whites, who develop a left-brain orientation. They contend that since the American school system is fashioned for the left-brain orientation, blacks are at a disadvantage in America. Now, again, I reject this. Indeed I think it is pure baloney as these people present it. It is certainly true that black culture affects learning style. But these people wish to justify change in education to accommodate what now goes for black culture. Wright also wishes this, and that is essentially what this part of his speech was about. I think we blacks simply need to change our culture because much of our culture is defective (because of slavery) in a modern technological world. But I digress. The point here is there is nothing in Wright’s speech that deals with inherent or genetic differences between blacks and whites.</p>

<p>So then where is the racism? It does not exist. Wright is a culturist, and he promotes his idea of black culture – an idea I reject out of hand. Goldberg, and the rest of the wingers on which you here depend, misrepresent Wright likely because they (and obviously you) have never once even ventured to get the facts from him. Yet you think yourselves fit to disparage the man as a racist. It is patently dishonorable. There are many reasons to disparage Wright. Racism is not one of them.</p>

<p>Now the “garlic nose” comment is unsavory, as are very many of Wright’s comments. I do not defend Wright as a model I would follow or that I would encourage others to follow. But I acknowledge that the man has virtue enough that I can understand why and how Obama came to love him. Obama clearly compartmentalizes Wright’s anger as belonging to a man of a different time, and that is legitimate. Still, I think calling Italians “garlic noses” was out of line. Of course even here there is no racism. If anything, Wright has a problem with Italians, not whites in principle. Why would he attack Italians, of all people? Thinking people would ask this question and demand to see the context of the comment before passing judgment. Here is the statement in fuller context:</p>

<p>“[Jesus was Galilean. His] enemies had their opinion about Him….The Italians for the most part looked down their garlic noses at the Galileans.”</p>

<p>We therefore see that Wright was not even slurring modern Italians but ancient ones. He was obviously attacking Romans for crucifying Christ. The point was to make a parallel between black leaders living in white oppression, and Jesus living under Italian oppression two thousand years ago. I think Wright’s approach was unfortunate because people are just not philosophical enough to make the sort of distinction between ancient Italians and modern ones in a discussion of this sort. And when a people already hate a man, as they do Wright, then anything he says that is the least bit controversial will be cast into the very worst light possible.</p>

<p>But reason will not permit us to declare racism even here. Indeed, it will not even permit us to claim hatred against modern Italians, since the statement obviously dealt with Romans. Reason quite easily permits us to declare Wright to be undiscerning, reckless, and a number of other unfortunate terms.</p>

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<p>As I have demonstrated, the “evidence” you have submitted here does not contain actual fact, but only the ranting of right wingers with an axe to grind against a black man they have condemned as militant. This evidence is false, and all men of honor will see it as such.</p>

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<p>You are deliberately slandering the man, and without suitable evidence. That is to act without honor.</p>

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<p>You need not cut Wright any slack at all, as long as you are fair-minded enough to condemn him for actual wrongs and not the projected fabrications of your own mind. I doubt your ability to be reasonable where Wright is concerned because you appear too eager to use him to destroy Obama. I think this behavior has no honor.</p>

<p>Just curious - what would the response be if McCain had sat in a church for 20 yrs. with a pastor who said similar things about AfAms?</p>

<p>Would anyone still be supporting him?</p>

<p>Drosselmeier, you are trying to turn the tide with a broom. Those with whom you are attempting to reason are simply using whatever weapons they find to strike out at those they perceive as “the enemy.” You will encounter empty ratiocination such as bz’s post 122, vacuous accusations such as you have tried to addressed rationally, and you will fail.</p>

<p>Because actual debate requires a willingness to see the other side of the issue. And right wingers lack that. They just repeat the latest sound-bite from their RNC e-mails, blogs, right wing radio, or the like. You can’t cite enough actual facts, primary sources, etc. to make a difference. They won’t read the actual data, statements in context, etc. They’ll just parrot the glib, superficial gotcha’s they’ve been fed. They’re really no different from the ignorant South Carolina crone who confided that she wouldn’t vote for Obama “because he’s Muslim.” They’ve just been fed slicker lines.</p>

<p>Give up. I have. These folks are just looking for opportunities to repeat their soundbites. You can’t reason with them.</p>

<p>I understand completely where you are coming from, kluge, a reasoned discussion is not what they come here for. But I always learn a lot from Dross’s eloquent, well-reasoned, measured posts. I selfishly hope he doesn’t give up because even if some folks just parrot sound bite attacks in response, there are others who appreciate reading thoughts of a first-rate mind, from someone who never loses his cool. (hmm… reminds me of a certain candidate).</p>

<p>There is an excellent – and very long – article here: [New</a> York Times - Is Obama the End of Black Politics?](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/magazine/10politics-t.html?hp=&pagewanted=all]New”>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/magazine/10politics-t.html?hp=&pagewanted=all) It is mostly about the generational shift between African-American politicians of Obama’s generation, and the old-guard politics of those who are veterans of the civil rights movement.</p>

<p>I think it is very pertinent to this thread because it shows why the so-called Farrakhan “connection” is so implausible. Obama is not “of” the generation that gives rise to the rhetoric of Farrakhan, or Wright, or Jesse Jackson Sr. He is clearly a part of the upwardly mobile generation who grew up as the beneficiaries of the civil rights movement – and who have a very different outlook.</p>

<p>The article is also enlightening because it explains some of the resentment Wright and Jackson feel toward Obama, precisely because he doesn’t fit their view as a champion for the rights of African Americans:

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<p>Now it seems we are clearing some air here and getting to the heart of the matter. This is refreshing. :)</p>

<p>Those who helped create our hypersensitive and rapidly judgmental mindset of politically correct public opinion are now finding themselves hung on those very gallows they so passionately built. The system is now devouring those it was originally intended to assist and protect.</p>

<p>Of course I have read the many explanations offered in defense of Wright and heard the pleas to dig a bit deeper and ensure that the political synchronization pulse is correctly aligned. Sensitive decryption of unstated codes must be observed, grace must fall on the (appropriately politically determined) guilty on cue.</p>

<p>However, here we can see that Wright has lived on the edge with public pronouncements for decades (Senator and Mrs. Obama were always absent those days, conveniently, even over 20+ years. ;)) and now his chickens, it would seem, have roosted on his public words. His pronouncements have been weighed by professionals in the balance of political correctness and been found wanting. He has been convicted in the court of public opinion, to be periodically skewered with his sound-bite words when needed.</p>

<p>Where was all this angst and detailed review for Truth when multitudes of conservatives were similarly hanged? They received none. They were judged wanting in the balance of public opinion and promptly and gleefully dispatched. Extensive pleas for restraint and consideration of detailed records were ignored, cries for Truth fell on deaf ears. How ironic the tide has now turned.</p>

<p>Folks, if you really want fair treatment for one, you must provide it for all. Justice must be blind, not politically correct. Remember Reverend Wright’s (public opinion) fate when the next political opponent of yours is brought up on charges for this or that. Parse records carefully before pulling the opinion trigger, lest the next head left of the pike of political correctness is yours.</p>

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<p>Let us agree that Wright is a public figure and that he has been drawn into national publicity as a result of his close personal connection to Senator and Mrs Obama. Wright’s statements are certainly inflammatory and perceived racist by any number of media professionals. That close later review perhaps mitigates this charge, people can still express opinions about such public figures as I have done based on the public record.</p>

<p>I have looked at those sources and see that Wright’s words were exploited for shock value. They are controversial and inflammatory and probably intended for a limited audience - his church. Based on these limited resources I would agree that Wright is not an actual racist, but is deliberately provocative and runs a real risk of people reaching a conclusion he is a racist. Such may play well with his congregation but get amplified and snipped into bites that certainly look racist outside of his immediate group resulting in negative reporting of a widespread nature.</p>

<p>Please don’t lecture me on the expression of political opinion here on the CC. You have also engaged in highly opinionated expression with which I sometimes sincerely disagree and immediately discount as partisan and ill-conceived. You know that the parent section permits reasonable expression of opinion and you take advantage of it. I would urge you to use the same restraint you expect of others. The CC is expected to be a friendly and welcoming place. ;)</p>

<p>Followup to my post #125:

See: [FOXNews.com</a> - Ralph Nader Calls Out Barack Obama - Brit Hume | Special Report](<a href=“http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,399064,00.html]FOXNews.com”>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,399064,00.html)</p>

<p>Pretty much plays right into the theme of the NY Times article I cited above: the politics of protest is giving away to the politics of assimilation with the rising of a new generation, and the old guard is not at all happy about it.</p>

<p>Calmom, your article gives me hope:</p>

<p>But to hear those close to Obama tell it, it was also because, like Booker and other younger black politicians, he simply wasn’t comfortable categorizing his politics by race. </p>

<p>Senator Obama may well be the next president. If so, I hope he’s the best yet. ;)</p>

<p>Hey, you’ll be even more heartened by this – it turns out that Barack is in fact Irish (O’Bama?) –>

Source: [Obama</a> ancestor opposed corruption in Dublin - The Irish Times - Thu, Aug 07, 2008](<a href=“http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0807/1218047756312.html]Obama”>http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0807/1218047756312.html)</p>

<p>Of course, now he’ll probably have to prove to detractors that he has no ties to the IRA.</p>

<p>OMG…we may be related. ;)</p>

<p>In a relatively short period of time, I’ve gone from deeply admiring Ralph Nader (from his “Unsafe at Any Speed” years), to loathing the sight of him. What an egomaniacal jackass he’s turned out to be. :(</p>

<p>P2N–You probably ARE related to Obama. :smiley: … Last year I researched my father’s side of the family on ancestry.com. Lo’ and behold, I discovered that I have a lot of famous cousins–James Dean (my 9th cousin, one time removed), Louis Pasteur (8th cousin, 8 times removed), Jack Kerouac (my 7th cousin from whom I inherited my “writing” genes), John Wayne (5th cousin, 8 times removed), and not to forget my distant great grand aunt, Joan of Arc.</p>

<p>Interesting web site here (if you are into geneology, this definitely provides all you would ever want to know about Obama’s ancestry):
[Ancestry</a> of Barack Obama - Family Tree and Genealogy of Senator Obama](<a href=“http://genealogy.about.com/od/aframertrees/p/barack_obama.htm]Ancestry”>Ancestry of Barack Obama Family Tree and Genealogy)</p>

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<p>I’ve always wondered why that term would instill such fear in a people who hold “Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness” sacrosanct…</p>

<p>But come to think of it, though…it always seems to have been a matter of whose liberation was being advocated. Fear and outrage at that very prospect of blacks drinking from the sacred well certainly fueled a war that threatened to destroy America its very self. Could the current, seeming visceral outrage expressed by some right wing pundits springs from a residual, atavistic reaction to the words, “black” and “liberation” used so closely together?;)</p>

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As it happens, I’ll be in County Offaly next week. If I can uncover any IRA ties, I’ll report back to you.</p>

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Don’t think so. So many groups (like the IRA) have co-opted & bastardized the term liberty, or evolved so far from their original pursuit of liberty, that we like to do our research before assuming a movement has noble motives.</p>

<p>Think of all the words that have taken on negative connotations these days (at least in the opinion of some): “liberal,” “conservative,” “feminist,” “gay.” Etc. :(</p>

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<p>I dare say Rev. Wright’s comments weren’t particularly controversial or inflammatory in the eyes of his intended audience, because they understood them in their social and historical context, as well as the immediate context under which they were being spoken. They are “racist” only to those who (as Dross has quite rightly said), have somewhat of a “need” for them to be so—persons seeking to twist and exploit them in order to crucify Obama, and such as have always needed to equate angry blacks who dare to speak of racial injustice, with whites (such as David Duke—and as Dross has well proven—Jerry Falwell) who have unapologetically and proudly flown the banner of White Supremacy. With the exception the “Red Threat” of Communism, history has shown that Americans have feared little as much as anger expressed by blacks. Media pundits tap into that wellspring every time they accuse Wright of racism, knowing that they don’t actually have to prove anything. “The Angry Black Man”, “The Dangerous Black Man”—they invoke primal fears, 300+ years old, that politicians have instinctively exploited since well before Louise Farrakhan, Willie Horton or, Jeremiah Wright. Add the newly minted fear of all things Islam, and you’ve got a neat, complete, and very powerful “fear bomb” (to use the words of Michele Obama) whose detonator has been very cleverly superglued to Barack Obama’s back. He knows it, and we know it, but God help him if he even begins to address its existence, lest he be accused of “playing the race card”, (as if race has never had any role in American social policy and politics:rolleyes:)</p>

<p>[Barack</a> Obama To Little Girl: America’s Not So Great (hotair) - <a href=“http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net%5B/url%5D”>www.hillaryclintonforum.net](<a href=“http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=22824]Barack”>http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=22824)</a></p>

<p>Interesting Point of View</p>

<p>This is to notify any and all who care: I will no longer join interesteddad in referring to Barak Obama as THE ONE. Having read Maureen Dowd’s latest column, in which she compares Obama favorably to Mr. Darcy–the most wonderful male character in all of literature–I will henceforth refer to THE ONE as “Mr. Darcy.” Thank you for your attention.</p>

<p>[Dowd:</a> Mr. Darcy comes courting - International Herald Tribune](<a href=“http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/03/opinion/eddowd.php]Dowd:”>http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/03/opinion/eddowd.php)</p>