Lousiana charter high school kicking out pregnant teens

limabeans01 · August 10, 2012, 7:19pm

I just want to be sure I know what we are disagreeing on ( because I don’t think it’s a matter of semantics ( but English is not my best subject ).

If I understand correctly, you feel that teachers should work all year (except for “normal” vacation time) regardless of the student schedule, for the current amount of pay. The school districts would then be required to provide additional training (no more extra college classes for teachers at their own expense) when students are not in school.

I don’t believe that summer is an unpaid furlough, I believe it is a time you are not expected to formally work with students and thus are not paid. It is laid out at the time you get the job. Cutting the number of working days ( and pay) after the fact is , in my book, an unpaid furlough. Many teachers use summer to work a different job. Some teachers attend conferences that they are not “paid” to attend (my parents never got to go to Hawaii!) although some districts will pay the travel expenses. Some teachers take college classes in order to get a raise. My parents hate this the most, they call it “paying for a raise”. I know they feel that is very unfair and wish to be given raises based on merit.

bookmama22 · August 10, 2012, 9:00pm

As I work in educational sales, I can tell you that I deal all day long during the summer with teachers and librarians who are not being paid and are doing plenty of research on their own time and buying resources with their own money that is not being reimbursed. Many of my close friends are teachers and retired from the NYC BOE and districts in Nassau County, and I can tell you that all spent time during the summer on their own time preparing for the following school year-certainly not all day, every day…I know that teachers in the school district where I live in Nassau County generally come in to school in late August prior to mandatory staff development and training days to prepare their classrooms and resources and become familiar with their incoming class rosters. There’s hardly a teacher or school librarian that I can think of that would not respond to student emails at night, on the weekends, during breaks as well as emails from their supervisors and colleagues, not to mention staying at night for parent-teacher conferences where sadly so few parents bother to show up even those with specific appointments.

NewHope33 · August 10, 2012, 9:58pm

"… not to mention staying at night for parent-teacher conferences where sadly so few parents bother to show up even those with specific appointments."

In our public school system, Parent-Teacher Conferences are by invitation only. (Let me say that again s-l-o-w-l-y … unless your child is having problems, you won’t be part of the scheduled Parent-Teacher Conferences.) Just one more reason the top quarter of the 8th Grade class flees to privates for HS.

I don’t think there’s disagreement that many public school systems are failing their communities. I am reluctant to lay this off on teachers, because the better teachers in our school system are frustrated too. What teacher wants to see the best students leave the school system? Can teachers and teaching environments be improved? Sure. But when the Superintendent publishes a list of 35 number one priorities … not one of which is education-related … the best teacher in the world is going to have difficulty.

(35 #1 Priorities, none of which is related to education? Yep. You can’t make this stuff up.)

sryrstress · August 10, 2012, 10:20pm

Our school district stopped all parent teacher conferences about 4 years ago. When they did have them, they started school at 1 p.m. that day, because it was contractual and the teachers refused to work more than 7.5 hours. When questioned, the sup’t said anyone with problems would be contacted by the school and “good students” and their parents had no need of a parent-teacher conference. :(

As for on line classes and cubicles in charter schools, my D is in a small, rural public where there are no charter choices or viable private schools. The school is really pushing on line classes. Do we offer physics? Of course. How about Spanish 4 or any other multiple of classes? Of course. Yep, all on line, done without teacher oversight or assistance.

D was in a freshman world geography course that was all MAC based. The discipline was so horrendous everyone in the administration agreed with me there was no hope. Their solution–my D could take her computer to a coat closet and do the work on her own. Hey, it was a computer class anyway. Why were we paying the teacher $55,000? Hmmm, I’m not sure.

My parents were a life-long teacher and principal. I strongly believe teacher unions highly affect keeping highly ineffective teachers…for life. My state now has, I think, the biggest voucher program available. I’d be the first in line to jump ship if I had an alternative, and my kid has an IEP. Our state dollars now follow the student and I agree with that. There’s a reason people are fleeing public schools.

As for pregnancy, I don’t see how testing and kicking out will ultimately fly…I completely agree with a previous poster that this is glorified and pregnant students are a big distraction. Also pretty sure giving them less education is only doomed to make their life even worse.

emeraldkity4 · August 10, 2012, 11:15pm

Why is the school district pushing online classes?
Those are much more difficult for some students.
What do the parents/school board have to say?

kmcmom13 · August 11, 2012, 7:39am

I suspect that district is pushing online classes (like ours) to save money, appear to offer the full curriculum but not (because perhaps the smallness means scheduling does not allow a cost-effective way to deliver the class) etc. Part of the problem in a small school is that per capita funding makes it exceptionally difficult to offer a robust schedule.

Not all vendors are created equal, but the so-called online classes our district offered were pretty Mickey-mouse, ridden with error – including factual error – and at the same time
put money into the hands of unscrupulous profit-focused companies. Results were exceptionally uneven, but I suspect that had a lot to do with literacy levels. Eg. In an urban district where literacy is often an issue for at least 30% of the population, online classes are indeed disastrous.

I’ve no doubt there is a meaningful way to deliver quality online classes; I’m just not convinced an already failing and cash-strapped urban district has the capacity, funding, or motivation to do it, or that profiteers can or will necessarily resist the temptation to cut corners and deliver crap to divert public funding into private pockets.

But a literate student with reasonable study habits and the motivation to learn can indeed learn/benefit from an online class, so there’s nothing inherently wrong with the concept. Like most things, it’s the delivery and suitability that is the issue.

cartera45 · August 11, 2012, 11:14am

The facts just don’t support your belief. Stories of how hard it is to fire bad teachers are greatly exaggerated, for political reasons. There are some legitimate complaints to be made in some states, but there are many reasons teachers aren’t fired other than fear of unions. Teachers are fired at about the same rate in union as in non-union states.

Lergnom · August 11, 2012, 11:46am

Not only are teachers fired at similar rates in union and non-union states, but there is a concerted effort to make it look like unions protect abusers. It’s a nice talking point but it devolves in reality to: would you want to be fired without a hearing if you were accused? Not convicted. Not even arrested for a crime. Just accused by someone. You might not even know who accused you or exactly what the offense is. Make it blunter: what if you hugged a person at work and were fired for it? But if you can say unions protect abusers, you score points.

These kinds of things fascinate me. There is much heat and light over things like the ability to remove a specific teacher, as though that actually makes a difference in the great scheme of hundreds of thousands of classrooms. I extrapolate that to anxiety and worry over education expressing itself - because this is America - as blame and a desire to threaten with punishment as a way to improve behavior. That trait is a strong part of our national character.

I’ve never been able to understand why we are unable to look at ourselves. Remember Pogo, the comic strip? The classic line was “we have met the enemy … and he is us.” We’re able to do this in many ways but not this kind of thing. For example, we may be the only nation to name ships after lost battles. We remember the Alamo more than San Jacinto, though the former was a loss and the latter won the war. I guess we remember the hurts done us, which fits because resentment and revenge goes with blame.

I posted a rant in this thread about how schools reflect their communities. As the people in our high school say, the culture of our town - Brookline, MA - is such that kids work hard and are pushed so much that the high school sometimes has to help the kids deal with that pressure. It also means our schools have more time to devote to those with problems; they can assume the ordinary kid will be working and learning because kids fit into the culture of their place.

So if your schools have problems, look in the mirror. Look at your community. If you have problems with administration fighting with teachers, the problem is in the way your community works.

dietz199 · August 11, 2012, 11:57am

In 1980 CA had 20B in it’s general fund of which 38% went into the K-CC ‘funnel’. In 2010 CA had 92B in the general fund of which 38% went into the K-CC funnel. So for every $1.00 that went into the system in 1980 there are now $4.5 dollars going into the system. And what has this bought us…(no intent to make a political statement - just facts here) a California Teachers party line of ‘not enough funding’ a gov. who is threatening to slash Higher Ed funding (because in his first tenure he kissed a lot of rear and the funds for K-CC are dedicated and untouchable where as the Higher Ed funds are up for a game of political pool), the state running for bottom on literacy and math ability and a competition for private school positions that makes a grab for a mid tier university seat seem like a stroll in the park.

We are in agreement here. The problem is that all communities are NOT equal. IMO - if you want to achieve equality you must start with expectations on the family level, and not place all of those into the classroom. The simple (an politically incorrect) fact is that it is just not possible for the school system to be everything to everyone without becoming everything to no one. The HS down the street had a problem with sports fields flooding so some parents spent the several weekends working on one of the fields. Trouble ensued because not the fields were unequal (one used mainly for male sports, the other for female). In addition the union grounds keepers were up in arm. So, no more parent assistance allowed in this area. Stupid is as stupid does.

My district has the 4th highest performing HS in the state - it is a public charter. Each and every year they must fight to stay in existence because of the attitude of the general school board. Sometimes when a thing is so completely broken, held together with duct tape, Krazy glue and used gum…it’s best to cry uncle and just start from scratch. With some of our cities not declaring bankruptcy…there may be a chance to do exactly that.

NewHope33 · August 11, 2012, 12:26pm

“Stupid is as stupid does.”

My nominee for ‘Observation of the Day.’

Naturally · August 11, 2012, 8:37pm

The US public education system could be improved, but I don’t think what teachers do / don’t do is the main issue. I think it’s the way everything hangs together.

For example, I was listening to NPR a while back and they were talking about school textbooks. There are a couple of companies who specialize in them–math books, science books, etc–and they closely monitor the education legislation passed in each state, because they want to sell their textbooks to as many people as possible, and they can reach more people if their books fit the guidelines for various states.

So if a state legislature starts getting ticked off about schools teaching evolution and starts demanding stickers on textbooks and lessening / cutting out education about evolution . . . there is a chance that the textbook companies will start changing their books for that state so that they will still get buyers.

Well, you can see what a vicious cycle that could turn into. Not even including information on evolution (or the other topic du jour) so that kids could read it on their own, outside of class, or so that private schools could teach it, or so the public schools could teach it if the laws change . . . So the kids grow up not learning it . . . and then grow up disbelieving in it because "I was never taught that."

What the solution would be to that, I am not sure, but I wish people would think about that sort of thing more, rather than “OMG teachers get time off in the summer, how terrible.”

limabeans01 · August 12, 2012, 4:04pm

Love your post Naturally. It is one of the topics we should be thinking about. This thread got me interested in the whole teaching of creationism vs evolution and I am horrified! I can’t believe that Lousianna can spend taxpayer money on educational practices that are contrary to generally accepted scientific knowledge. Very scary stuff!

I also saw that there was a lawsuit filed by religious schools against the UC system. The school(s) felt that the UC’s must accept their teaching of biology (refute any scientific knowledge if it contradicts the bible in any way, like they think the earth is 6,000 years old) as meeting the university requirement based on religious freedom and freedom of speech ( or something close to that).

The UC’s won the lawsuit. Bible biology does not meet the requirement for UC admission. I wonder if other universities are rejecting science classes taught in schools with extreme views.

Btw… There was mention that many religious school’s did teach science classes that met the UC requirements. The religious point of view was taught in the religion class.

Lergnom · August 12, 2012, 4:37pm

It isn’t just science. Perhaps in reaction to perceived liberal slants on history, many groups are pushing textbooks at the state education board level which rewrite history another way. Much of this is “America is a Christian nation” stuff, taking bits and pieces from the Founders while ignoring the way they were nothing like modern Christians, certainly not Evangelicals. Some of it is a denial of historical racism, which I suppose is part of the process of “reclaiming” history for your group. The worst of that is seen in the VA texts that were approved but which included utter tripe like large numbers of slaves fighting for the Confederacy*. Some is rewriting history to emphasize free market principles or the goodness of what otherwise might be seen as America’s bad moments, something that sort of makes sense because their argument is books before used to talk more about what these people don’t like.

Besides the sloppy scholarship, my main complaint is that books shouldn’t be used to indoctrinate but to challenge. If you study the fate of the Cherokee, you have an opportunity to think hard about history. Of course all history is a perspective and some books have gone too far leaning toward sympathy - as in a textbook I read which essentially denounced using the A-Bomb on Japan. But good texts offer perspectives, including ones that make you uncomfortable.

It’s kind of funny to read about some of the texts approved for use in light of my kid’s experience in high school in China. Remember, the classes are lecture and you’re free to sleep because questions are generally not encouraged and what matters is the work you do. She said the history classes were awful recitations of the evils of Japan and the failures and corruption of the KMT - that’s Chiang’s nationalists, the ones who lost. The same kind of ridiculousness I see moving into our texts. It’s ironic to me that China is moving from belief to pragmatism as we move from pragmatism to belief. You always believe your beliefs are right and now in the US we are insisting more and more that belief is more important than fact.

*A small number of slaves did fight and more accompanied their owners but there was nothing like put forth. They also “whitewash” the composition of the Confederate armies, which were in fact dominated by people with direct ownership interests in slaves within their households. Excellent book, for example, is available about who served in the Army of N. VA.

cartera45 · August 12, 2012, 7:29pm

That is an example of a decision that has been legitimately questioned, however, so considering the denunciations is warranted. Of course, arguments both for and against should be presented. Trying to paint slavery in a better light is just mind boggling.

cobrat · August 12, 2012, 7:32pm

If we’re talking Mainland China here, it seems they’re less strict than schools in the ROC(Taiwan). If you fell asleep in class in the ROC…especially back in the '50s, there will be hell to pay.

As that’s considered a manifestation of rank disrespect for the teacher/school, you could be immediately disciplined by the teacher, dean/principal, local military training personnel if it’s high school, and then go home knowing you’ll be harshly punished by your parents.

Some of them may go so far as to publicly punish you in front of the teacher and force you to make a public apology in front of the community/school to avoid seeming like lackadaisical parents. Granted, most of this was more in the past…but I still hear from many more recent students that such behavior is still rarely tolerated…especially in college prep/higher vocational oriented high schools.

As a continuing student of Modern Chinese and Second Sino-Japanese War/WWII history, those history classes weren’t completely off the mark in that aspect…though they tend to overexaggerate the CCP’s military roles while severely diminishing the role of the KMT.

However, this has greatly improved over the last 2 decades judging by what I’ve seen in some of their museums dealing with the war. Hey, there’s a mural of KMT troops bravely fighting Japanese troops right next to another mural showing CCP troops doing the same at one museum I visited in China during the late '90s.

As for Japan, one only needs to remember the Bataan Death March or the summary execution of American airmen who were captured by the Imperial Japanese forces in Japan after the Doolittle Raid…and those were just two examples affecting Americans I can think of off the top of my head.

Moreover, keep in mind that the Koreans, Chinese, and other colonized had been treated just as/more brutally over a far longer period of time for the sake of Japan’s so-called “East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere”. Did I also mention that many textbooks being used in Japanese schools still tend to overemphasize their “victim status” from the atomic bombings while severely downplaying/omitting their wartime/colonialist legacy…including war crimes.

It also doesn’t help that the Japanese wingnuts aren’t only publicly trying to deny Japan’s brutal colonial/wartime legacy, the current government is still trying to claim islands/lands whose entire basis was derived from the imperial conquest/colonial period (Southern Sakhalin Island, Dokdo/Takeshima, and Diaoyu/Senkaku).

IMHO, the level of chutzpah is as if Germany and her right-wing politicians tried to reclaim Alsace-Lorraine, Poland, Tanzania, Namibia, etc as German territory. All territories which were part of Imperial Germany’s colonial legacy and/or Nazi Germany’s rampage through Europe.

Lergnom · August 12, 2012, 8:23pm

I’m not here to argue the merits of history and who was right or wrong. It isn’t that I disagree. It isn’t, to me, on topic.

As background, my kid spent a semester of high school in a top exam school in Xian. Kids would eat or sleep in class because they spent their lives studying, doing homework, studying, doing homework. A lower grade on a test meant room searches for contraband like pleasure reading. God forbid you had a boy or girl friend. She had friends with hidden storage compartments for books like Harry Potter. And of course half the class was pitted in academic competition with the other half. She thought the morning calisthenics were hilarious and was infuriated by the way they prevented girls from doing real sports. They instead did a dance routine. A really elaborate dance routine.

Positives included understanding how they teach subjects like math and science: they emphasize learning by rote and testing you on what you have learned versus the US method of trying to understand what this or that means and then testing to find out what you don’t know through new applications of the material. The Chinese system she saw could be mind-numbing but it was based on success: you were tested on what you were taught while in the US you are tested to find out what you don’t know. American students face a different form of failure, thinking they understand or being unsure of what they understand and then being confronted with that lack. Chinese students had to deal with lots of stuff, ridiculous quantities of homework and a lack of ability to question but this occurred in a context in which learning was clearly successful because they tested you on what you memorized. She saw that basic math was equivalent to our higher calculus levels and that people became used to learning lots of material quickly. This shows in Chinese engineering, for example: when a problem arises, a solution comes up and can be spread rapidly because everyone knows the process for learning material. Totally different from our system. Much more efficient though less creative. They expect a relative few will be creative but that everyone can learn material and do work. We seem to expect creativity and in our zeal to teach that we can fail to teach how to learn material and do work.

sewhappy · August 12, 2012, 9:02pm

I think the “widespread disdain for the teaching profession” noted in several thoughtful posts on here has to do with the curriculum being pumped out by PhD’s in education (whatever that can possibly mean in terms of qualification to do anything!). I really think a lot of the problem lies in the horrible textbooks and curriculum being produced by idiotic so-called experts in education. It is beyond terrible for the most part.

The reason really smart college students are generally not interested in teaching is because the field has been owned by a very long time in this society by fools. Yes, there
s TFA and other programs and they are a good start in trying to change this but it’s a an up hill battle. The teacher’s unions are another negative force, imo.

I really think a lot of our blunders as a nation in the past few decades can be attributed to the failures of our education franchise. I think education is by far our most serious, urgent crisis.

Dad_of_3 · August 12, 2012, 9:13pm

Don’t know how this applies to the thread, but regarding the difference between the US system and the Asian one where I obtained my undergrad, the issue wasn’t that much about rote learning. The fundamental difference that I found was the US system was so much more practical - getting things done, and ours was much more theory - not learning by rote, but learning the theory.

Similar situation in the workplace - while I probably was much better informed about the technical aspects of a problem, my coworkers were better in getting the issue taken care of - like resetting the expectations of the client or getting a procedural fix rather than making the change that required the technical skill.

limabeans01 · August 12, 2012, 9:38pm

It’s amazing how some posters can get “stuck” on a myopic point of view. No matter where the thread goes, it always comes back to the same worn out pov. Nothing new is ever added nor is there ever given a workable solution.

tom1944 · August 12, 2012, 9:41pm

I wonder how the education systems are in States with low teacher union membership? Clearly removing that negative force must lead to greater educational achievement

Lousiana charter high school kicking out pregnant teens

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