<p>It’s unclear as to what the OP’s financial situation is.</p>
<p>he says that he can afford $30k and will “apply” for merit to pay the rest. That suggests that he won’t qualify for need-based aid (or enough) from a school like Rice or other top privates.</p>
<p>Rice and similar would not give him merit…certainly not $20k+ per year. </p>
<p>He needs to strategize otherwise he could end up with unaffordable acceptances.</p>
<p>
If you consider all available stats instead of just math SAT, math SAT I adds little improvement to predicting college GPA beyond the other stats. For example, the Geiser UC study found the following regression coefficients for cumulative 4th-year college GPA among math/science majors:</p>
<p>Math/Physics GPA – HS GPA: 0.35, SAT V: -0.01, SAT M: 0.02, SAT W: 0.11, SAT II M: 0.12, SAT II 2nd: 0.09</p>
<p>HS GPA was by far the most influential stat. Math & verbal SAT I had a negligible contribution. SAT II tests and SAT writing had a significant contribution, but notably less than HS GPA. When considering all of these stats as well as education, income, and API; Geiser was only able to account for 26% of the variance in college GPA. With just M+V SAT, he was only able to account for 13%. Grad rate followed a similar pattern.</p>
<p>The Duke study considered even more variables, including things like the application LORs and essay. It found the following variables had the greatest contribution to dropping out of an engineering major, ranked from most significant to least significant. + indicates increases changes of dropping out. - indicates decreases chance of dropping out. Note that SAT scores had a lower contribution than all measured variables except for having desirable personal qualities (desirable person qualities increased chance of dropping out of engineering).</p>
<ol>
<li>Being female (+)</li>
<li>HS curriculum (-)</li>
<li>How easy/harshly college classes graded (-)</li>
<li>Application essays (-)</li>
<li>HS achievement (-)</li>
<li>Being an URM (+)</li>
<li>Being Asian (-)</li>
<li>Application LORs (-)</li>
<li>SAT score (-)</li>
<li>Application desirable personal qualities (+)</li>
</ol>
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<p>Do you have links to these studies?</p>
<p>
The UC study is at <a href=“http://cshe.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/shared/publications/docs/ROPS.GEISER._SAT_6.13.07.pdf[/url]”>http://cshe.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/shared/publications/docs/ROPS.GEISER._SAT_6.13.07.pdf</a> .</p>
<p>The Duke study is at <a href=“http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/grades_4.0.pdf[/url]”>http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/grades_4.0.pdf</a> .</p>
<p>FWIW, the average SAT math score for engineering students was 587 in 2010.</p>
<p>I don’t believe there is such a stat for engineering students. </p>
<p>Is this the stat for all students? If so, then it’s wrong to assume that the avg Math SAT score is what the avg eng’g student has. </p>
<p>or is this the stat for those “declaring eng’g” as a major (but then a bunch quickly get weeded out)? </p>
<p>I highly doubt that this stat apples to those who GRADUATE in eng’g.</p>
<p>lol…found the source for that stat. That is just based on what high school students select as likely major when they take the SAT. So, obviously it isn’t the stat of what the average Math SAT score is for ACTUAL engineering students…and certainly not of those who make it thru.</p>
<p>OP: Your SAT M score is not “low”. It is, however, low for the top engineering schools. It is perfectly fine for reputable engineering schools, as long as you work hard in your first year classes. Being hard-working is more important than a 700+ score for success in engineering.</p>
<p>Overall, can we agree that students with 700+M scores will do well in engineering (all things being equal) and those with scores below 600 will have trouble. Those in the 600-700 range need to choose schools that are appropriate to their pace, learning style, background, etc., especially taking into account what classes they’ve taken.</p>
<p>OP will likely take Calculus 1 first semester - s/he should not skip it regardless of calc AB scores, it’ll be a good opportunity to solidify fundamentals and master the concepts before jumping into Calc 2.</p>
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<p>A better way for the OP to determine placement in frosh calculus courses would be to look up the college’s old final exams for calculus 1 (and 2 if the OP is in AP calculus BC) to check his/her knowledge before deciding on whether to retake calculus 1 or start with a more advanced math course.</p>
<p>Some schools offer a special version of calculus 2 with some calculus 1 review for students entering with AP calculus AB.</p>
<p>^^ Totally agree with MYOS1634. My advice for most normal kids (which is 99% of us) is to not use AP credits to skip anything fundamental to your major, and especially for those who are pre-med or pre-law, where GPA is an important determining factor in admissions. Get a solid foundation and build up that GPA, even if the course is a review. Trust me, and I speak from experience, you do not know the subject as well as you think you do, especially math and science. Your HS class in all likelihood did not move at the pace of a college class, and taking it again will help you get used to what is really required.</p>
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<p>As you can tell from post #27, I disagree with the “always repeat your AP credit” advice, in favor of making a more informed decision based on the college’s actual expectations as reflected in its final exams for the course it allows skipping with AP credit. That the college allows skipping a course with AP credit in the first place indicates that it believes that most students with such AP credit can continue on to the next course. Of course, some students may not know the material as well as they think, but they should be able to see that after seeing the college’s old final exams.</p>
<p>Repeating one’s AP credit needlessly (i.e. when the student knows the material well, verified by checking the college’s old final exams) is just a waste of time and tuition.</p>
<p>I think it depends on the department and the program. Most schools give 1 semester for AB and 2 for BC. However, my D’s engineering school recommends that engineering students take 1 semester less credit for calculus then they’ve earned in order to really learn it well. </p>
<p>I would do what the department recommends. </p>
<p>I can see the argument that many engineering programs are so hard that getting some AP credit to get some tailwind so that you don’t have to take 5 technical classes at once has some merit also. </p>
<p>I think rules of thumb should be thrown out. </p>
<p>I like the idea of trying to do the school’s final exam for a course that one is considering placing out of.</p>
<p>I will admit that is an option I hadn’t thought of, and it’s a good gauge if it’s available. However, unless you slam dunk the test with an A, I would say it’s a warning sign that you might want to repeat it. </p>
<p>As I said, that’s the rule for most normal kids, not the kind of kid who takes DiffEq and OrgChem is HS. The average kid who takes Calc BC should not opt out of the first two Calc classes in an engineering sequence, one makes perfect sense, if you can nail the final. Getting out on English and History makes much more sense, if only for the reason of not having to take 5 classes, which I can tell you is a killer.</p>
<p>I believe there was another thread this morning that was similar and mentioned that some tests for some schools are available online. Searching for that would be worthwhile.</p>
<p>
Many students with 700+ M do poorly in engineering, and many students with lower scores do well. The links I listed above showed that math SAT only explained a small portion of variance in GPA and graduation rates. If by “all things being equal”, you mean similar HS GPA, HS curriculum, SES, gender/ethnicity, etc., instead of looking at scores alone, then math SAT I can have a negligible contribution to success beyond the other variables. If we are going to focus on the small contribution from SAT scores instead of the larger contributions from HS curriculum and HS GPA, note that many studies including the one linked above show that the SAT writing score has a greater contribution to STEM graduation than the math score.</p>
<p>Regarding the OP, his math ACT was in the 95th percentile, and has math SAT was in the 88th percentile. These aren’t low scores and certainly do not doom him to failure in engineering, although it is unusual that a student whose verbal is much higher than math would choose to go into engineering.</p>
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<p>Students taking AP calculus BC do tend to be a self-selected group of top students in math, so the assumptions about “average” students does not really apply to that group. A fairly significant percentage of them are likely to be fully ready to go straight to multivariable calculus and differential equations.</p>
<p>Students taking AP calculus AB tend not to be as strong on average, so such students may be more likely to need to retake the course covering the same material as their AP course. About 2.7 times as many students take the AB test as the BC test, but if you count only those who score a 5, that shrinks to 1.4 times as many.</p>
<p>Note that 5-on-BC students are only about 1.5% of high school graduates (probably 4.5% of the four year college bound), while 5-on-AB students are only about 2.1% of high school graduates (probably 6.3% of the four year college bound), so these students are not “average”. Counting all of those who score 3 or higher, AB passers are about 5.2% of high school graduates (probably 15.6% of the four year college bound), while BC passers are about 2.6% of high school graduates (probably 7.8% of the four year college bound), although you will probably agree that those who scored 3 are less likely to be ready to move ahead compared to those who scored 5.</p>
<p>In this case, I was talking to OP specifically. Since OP feels shaky about this math skills and is getting a B in AP calc AB, it’s a good idea to retake Calculus. Most of it will be a review, certainly, but it’ll ensure his knowledge is A-Level for the next class. This a foundation class for Engineering. In addition, by being a bit easier than his other engineering classes, OP is likely to feel more confidence generally speaking.</p>
<p>Since OP feels shaky about this math skills and is getting a B in AP calc AB, it’s a good idea to retake Calculus. Most of it will be a review, certainly, but it’ll ensure his knowledge is A-Level for the next class.</p>
<p>I agree. If anything, it may end up being an easier A which can help with the overall GPA. Retaking Cal I may not really help much with Cal II, but it should with Cal III.</p>