@SJ2727 yeah I understand that a good number of students have been accepted under the 25th percentile, I was just interested in hearing peoples’ first hand experience with it and what they think made them a good candidate (for example if they did have a hook or hooks then what were they)
and wake forest and unc are ranked 27th and 29th (so towards the end too) so i’d still be happy to hear. nothing is “not competitive enough” !
@Groundwork2022 I mentioned being a “spiked applicant” meaning that I am more spiked than “well rounded” in regards to ec’s and awards. I also mentioned having 3 hooks. I’m not confused . . . they were 2 separate points.
And the advantage to being spiked is…?
And you’re URM, low SES, child of a mega donor, legacy, or athletic recruit? Pick 3 of those 5?
Except for some athletes, you still need to match.
@lookingforward I’m not here to prove that I know what hooks are, and list them off. I just wanted to hear personal experiences and gain insight from people that have gotten into colleges with scores below the 25th percentile.
I’m aware you have to match with what a school is looking for, hence why I mentioned that I was spiked to begin with. I said this to show that it’s obviously been well received from at least ONE college because since I AM spiked, they were able to visualize me on campus being a certain type of student and participating in particular things.
(not to say that this isn’t possible for well rounded students, or that being spiked is better. I was just speaking on MY experience) !
If you’re not willing to share your hooks why should other students share theirs with you? Be cautiously optimistic about interviews with AO’s. It’s their job to sell the school to prospective students so that if they are accepted they’ll have a reason to choose them over other colleges that accept them. I hope it works out for you, but don’t assume it’s a guarantee of admission. Your app still has to make it through committee.
For my daughter I think that her essays and recs probably boosted her. Her English teacher this semester actually mentioned her application essays, and her recs have always been beyond glowing (we didn’t read her college recs but have for other scholarships and contests). And her DE classes helped balance the scores with something tangible that did she could do college level work.
Just saying, “spikey” generally runs counter to the idea kids will branch out of their primary interest area, explore more of college life, academic and in ECs. Not just the major. The show is in what you did in hs. Nearly all ECs in your own interest area is risky. You don’t want a top adcoms to think, “this kid is too spikey.”
Having spike in one area is fine, when it’s balanced by other activities in other areas. In general, for top colleges, you do want some rounding. Even MIT talks about this.
And right now, your scores are in the 25th percentile. Maybe they come up. But you need to cautiously consider.
Of course there are anecdotes. But those were kids who somehow knocked the full rest of their apps out of the park. Too much is made of hooks, as if they’re a magic wand. The top colleges want to know you can thrive there, by their definitions. Unfortunately, that includes scores, for several reasons.
When Duke speaks of kids with a “variety of experiences,” it’s not limited to family background.
I’'m not discouraging you as much as saying to go about this with eyes wide open.
My kid got into great colleges with lower scores. But that doesn’t begin to cover how she purposefully matched herself to the rest of what those colleges hoped for. She could “show” it.
Think about it.
"Which is why I asked for insight on colleges that may look past lower test scores in the presence of an otherwise strong application (without hooks in consideration). "
That’s a tough question w/o more specifics as others have noted, you mentioned UNC-Chapel Hill, and it seems a little odd they would take kids with lower test scores as in their CDS, they list test scores as very important an gpa as just important. UNC’s 25% for SATs is 1270 and you have to think most of those are athletes, as a report a few years back on the football team had their average SAT score at 1040.
To answer your question generally on colleges that look past test scores, you would probably think test optional schools, but be careful on those, because some them still have really good scores. Wake Forest was mentioned - their 25/75 is 1310/1470.
S19 was accepted to GT with his SAT EBRW score below the 25th percentile. His math, though, was right about 75th percentile. GT puts gpa, course rigor, and ECs over standardized scores. He was very strong in all those areas.
Yeah, for my daughter, good essays (especially the college-specific one) and what we suspect was a brilliant teacher rec probably tipped the balance, as well as a factor that was not technically a hook but made her very attractive to certain colleges. She wasn’t one of these people that had tons of ECs, she just had a couple, but they showed proper commitment over 4 years and she had won awards etc in them.
Comment about GT above is interesting - one thing I hadn’t considered is that while her math and science scores were unremarkable on ACT, her ELA sectors were 34 and 36, and she is doing a writing-intensive major. So it’s possible that they also looked at the subscores.
So …bottom line is to re-state the obvious, getting in with below par stats is going to require everything else to be great, and you need to give them one or more good reasons to choose you over thousands of others.
@deacxx , I think you’re asking the type of question that is not usually answered (or maybe even rarely asked on CC.)
My advice would be to apply to the schools you want to attend. There is no harm in dreaming, and in fact, dreaming big can help to landing big results. Still, be sure to include at least a couple of true targets, and a couple of true safties.
My son is in the same boat as you, with some of the same schools. Wake Forest is one of his favorites, as is UNC and NCSU. Not to mention several other schools where his stats would be considered to be in the lower 25%, or below the middle 50.
The reality is, the middle 50 leaves room below for at least 1/4 of a schools accepted freshmen. Some of those lowest 25% will be hooked, as mentioned, but some were also accepted for other reasons, such as a great essay, or great ECs, or because an AO connected with the applicant for some reason and pushed for admission.
Another reality is, no one here can tell you to feel comfortable/confident in your chances if your stats are below the middle 50. With your GPA, you have half the battle won. I would say apply to as many of your near-reaches as you can afford and just wait and see. I know it’s hard to be patient, but that’s really your only option. Many of us are in the same boat.
Good luck.
Thanks everyone for the insight! I’m going to take the December ACT and see if I can improve my score, and just apply to all of my schools RD
Worst case scenario is I don’t do good on the ACT either and I just apply to wake forest test optional, as well as my in state safeties
My essays and supplements are super risky and creative. Some people I let read them have told me they’re actually unnecessarily risky (for example, my “why this school” supplement for one school talks about what I DON’T like about the college, and then creatively changes narrative at the end of the essay)
but I think the uniqueness of my essays (on top of what I consider an already strong application minus test scores) is what could get me into these colleges.
With regard to your Why College X essay, if you have most of the essay talking about the school’s negatives, it’s possible the reader won’t make it all the way to the end. You could lose them early and they never get to the end. I think that is a distinct possibility. Proceed with caution.
There’s a CC parent who’s son admitted some negatives, but he was a supremely qualified candidate, in many respects.
Imagine an adcom reading your negatives and having a “Why Bother?” reaction. They want to know you get the positives, how they suit you and how you suit the college’s wants. Not that you’re a clever sort.
What we adults and your GC know is just how risky it is to turn off an adcom, to sour their impression of you, the applicant.
Please remember, they are not your hs teachers who know you, know your traits, forgive an occasional miss because, “Oh, that Billy,” wink wink. Adcoms are strangers.
@deacxx Hooks are almost always admitted in the early admissions cycle. If you have true hooks like URM, a building named after your grandfather, athlete, etc., then I highly recommend you apply early.
@AlwaysMoving I thought about that but my scores really aren’t where they need to be right now (especially for ED). The next ACT that still has registration open is the December 14th date. Most school’s applications for ED are due on 11/01 so i’m going to have to RD to all of my schools. I think higher scores during RD > lower scores during ED. What do you think?
If you were an athlete you’d be in discussions with the coaches and wouldn’t need to guess the best time to apply or with what scores. If a building was named for your family it would likely be at only one of those campuses so not a hook at the others. If you were the child of a big donor there would likely be discussions with the development office. That leaves low income, URM, and legacy. Applying ED if you’re low income and need to compare offers can be a risk. If finances are an issue I think you’re better off applying RD.
@austinmshauri well obviously if a building was funded by my parents at a specific school that wouldn’t be relevant at another. (same as legacy)
Does your family have a building named after them on a campus? How would you know what kind of discussions would be had, and with whom lol ? Because in my case, and others that I know that have been in the same position as me, that’s not exactly how conversation happens. Finances aren’t an issue, I would know better than to apply ED or even consider it, if they were.
Regardless of what my hooks are, although they typically hold more weight during ED, they don’t mean that i’m automatically guaranteed admission . . . . hence why I want to improve my test scores.
Thanks for trying to offer advice but none of what you just said is relevant to my situation.
As others have mentioned, by definition 25% of admitted students have stats below the 25th percentile for admitted students. Who is among the bottom quartile test scores varies by college.
At Wake Forest, I’d expect students who apply test optional make up a large portion of the lower quartile scores. Note that Wake Forest only reports scores for students who submit scores (on the pages I have seen), so the 25th percentile for the full student body including non-submitters is likely significantly lower than the reported 25th precentile.
You can find some specific numbers for UNC-CH in the lawsuit. . I haven’t read through the lawsuit docs in detail, but skimming through, it appears that in state URMs dominate the lower quartile test score grouping. First gen / low SES also appears to be highly influential. This doesn’t mean everyone in the lower quartile stats falls into these hook groups. There are likely many exceptions for various reasons, including some unhooked.
For example, when I applied to colleges (not recent), I was admitted unhooked to Stanford, MIT, and Ivies with a SAT CR in the bottom few percent It helped to have perfect scores on any standardized test related to math & science while applying as an engineering major, along with the other favorable criteria in the rest of the application, including getting straight A’s in a variety of advanced classes at other colleges. You might find that a notable portion of students who are in the bottom 25th percentile on one section of the SAT are in the top portion on the other like this. This effect can make the bottom 25th percentile combined score for the class different from the bottom 25th math + bottom 25th CR.
Some schools offer a distinct advantage for applying ED/EA. I think it is worth it to apply, even if you think you have a better score coming in DEC.
There is no guarantee you will actually achieve a better score. If you delay your application waiting for something that never comes, and you apply later but at lesser RD odds, you have only harmed your chances.
As long as your current score is in the ballpark, you probably will not be outright denied. The schools will probably defer the decision to RD rather than simply say “no”. Then, when your better score comes in, that will boost your chances at that time.
Although most schools’ ED/EA deadline is before your test date, some will accept later scores before they make their final EA/ED decisions in mid January. Thus, you don’t lose anything by applying now and sending your Dec test scores to them at that time.
If you take those three facts into consideration, I think it makes sense to apply EA/ED with your current grades. At least to the schools at the top of your personal want list.