Male privilege denialism

[inthegarden]

Those are terrible things. Truly.

But (genuine question): How many of these sad facts are because of what men do to themselves and to other men (or their own inabilities to develop better ways to solve problems) ?

And how many of these sufferings are caused by decisions and actions of women toward men?

Women, after all, have had very little say in how things are run. And, until very recently (meaning, maybe the last couple of centuries) I’d say that women, who traditionally invested their whole lives into the well-being of sons would not have willingly been the ones to put sons in such a terrible position. I’d say it rips women’s hearts to send sons of to war. (And until very recently, I’m sure women died in childbirth and infections of childbirth as much as men dies at war). Daughters seem to have been merely pawns (at most) to most fathers, and often mothers as well. Wives tend to care about the fate of their husbands. It’s a pretty recent thing for men to care (or admit to care) for women at all except as sexual commodities or bearers of children and doers of tasks.

So, what is your point about the hard things that men endure? Because women DO care. We have always cared. We have always been the ones giving birth and nursing the babies that turn into men and women. Not all women are saints, but most women have some empathy wired in because that’s how we’ve kept children alive and husbands interested enough in us not to throw us to wolves or into prostitution when they’re done with us. We developed empathy to survive and for our offspring to survive. Do you think women are indifferent to sons being sent to war, to being encarcerated, to suffer in old age long after we are dead? Women caring about men goes without saying.

The more pertinent question is, after thousands of years of women being treated as afterthoughts at best, do you men care about us or do you just want to continue the mean old ideas. That only attractive or subservient women , or women who don’t challenge you in any uncomfortable way are of value. What can we all do to make things better in a new way, that respects everybody, that doesn’t assign people to arbitrary roles, that assumes humans of any kind have value, rather than repeat old patterns that hurt everyone?

I don’t like the things you list (war, prison, etc) but I don’t know think women willingly created those conditions for men. Men sure do seem to hold on to systems that hurt women though. And looking at your list, that hurt yourselves a lot too.

[busdriver11]

Yes, I don’t think those things he listed could be considered as “female privilege”. Sad facts to be sure, but not because of privilege.

[MarylandJOE]

Deleted.

[scubasue]

@busdriver11

wish there was a better term than that, as

Maybe they could better understand "unearned advantage".

As demonstrated by multiple posts in this thread, there is still a lot of misunderstanding (maybe intentionally by a few?) about what the term “privilege” means in the context of sociology. When a comment is infused with defensiveness, that’s a pretty big signal that the commenter is not interested in understanding that some people (including me) have benefited from advantages that are not possible to “earn”.

A meaningful conversation about this topic hinges on a common understanding of the definition of “privilege” in this context.

[busdriver11]

I think most of us could identify some sort of privilege that they’ve had that helped them through their life. For me, I think the biggest privilege I’ve had has come from my parents. Despite their multiple mental illnesses and living as impoverished, I have never felt “less than”. I have never had a lack of self confidence or anxiety. They gave me the gift of not knowing there were things I couldn’t or shouldn’t do because I was female. My dad’s mantra was that you can do anything in life that you want, but you need to do it for yourself, nobody else is going to do it for you. I always felt secure and loved. I hope I have given my sons the same gift. Thanks, Mom and Dad!

[MarylandJOE]

I was born male. I didn’t have a choice in the matter. My wife was born female. She didn’t have a choice in the matter. Everyone has different world experiences. My male coworkers have different experiences in life than I do. My female coworkers, many whom are highly respected and stellar workers/individuals, have different experiences from me and each other. We’re all built differently.

Sure, I understand that a woman walking a remote trail alone has potentially much more apprehension than myself on that same trail. I don’t see that as male privilege. I see it as a failure of society to provide for a completely safe environment.

I don’t feel privileged to not have to go through childbirth. I think it would be amazing to know the feeling of having a child grow inside of me. I’ll never know that privilege.

There are many great women in the world that have made their way and done amazing things. There are many men that have floundered and failed. We all play a part in how our life turns out. I don’t see my being male as a privilege.

[KnearSeattle]

@MarylandJOE

Sure, I understand that a woman walking a remote trail alone has potentially much more apprehension than myself on that same trail. I don’t see that as male privilege. I see it as a failure of society to provide for a completely safe environment.

So, let’s leave the problematic word “privilege” alone. Yes, there’s a failure of society to provide for a completely safe environment. As a result, a woman must bear a fear or anxiety that a man probably doesn’t. Would you agree that one person in this case is thus less burdened than the other?

[sly123]

I’ve been married for over 30 years and my husband is clueless about his male privilege until I point it out. When we shop for appliances or cars the salesman without fail brush off or ignore my questions. It’s only after I threaten to leave until they address me that my husband even realizes that I’m being ignored.

[Colorado_mom]

When I was shopping for my first car (with my husband, but before we married) we walked out shortly after the salesman only addressed him… eventually even asking him, “What color do you think she’d like?”.

[MarylandJOE]

I appreciate your approach.

Yes, I can see where a woman might feel anxiety in a situation, being alone on a remote trail, where a man might not.

[hebegebe]

I am traveling overseas, and upon waking up I see that this thread has exploded. Haven’t read everything but I thought a couple of posts were pertinent.

@KnearSeattle

I tried to explain the concept to a male relative by asking him how often he fears for his physical safety if he enters an elevator with a woman or walks to his car in the dark. He admitted that he hardly ever gives a second thought to such actions. I told him that many or most women give them a lot of thought.

@VeryHappy

If I start to think of the many times I was overlooked during my career because of my gender, I become furious. Thank goodness that’s all behind me. I really hope it’s better for young people today, but I’m not optimistic.

To the above posters, and ones with similar stories, I believe you. The men in your lives have real advantages in several areas, as I describe below.

But how do we reconcile that those men feel a greater level of personal safety with the fact that men as a group die 4x more often from homicide? And how do we reconcile the fact that those men achieve more in their career with the fact that about 60% of all college students are now women, and that women also make up a majority of law students and medical school students?

Backing up a bit, CC skews heavily towards intelligent, college educated, and accomplished women. The men you interact with are likely to skew that way as well. So when we are talking about those two subsets, those men don’t tend to worry much about their physical safety, as crime is most concentrated in poor areas. And by and large, those men also don’t work in dangerous occupations either. Couple that with the rewards to men in corporate settings that I described in my first post, and you are right that those men are pretty privileged.

But if that subset of men correctly feel pretty safe in their surroundings, then that means there are a subset of men that are much less safe, whether they fully realize it or not. And there are men who feel compelled to take dangerous jobs for their increased pay as that is the best economic opportunity available to them.

In other words, male privilege is situational, and that can be the reason for some of the pushback for that term.

[KnearSeattle]

I’m genuinely curious. How often do you, personally, think about the fact that as a man you are more likely than a woman to be the victim of homicide?

[momofboiler1]

I had a car salesman tell me to come back with my husband when I was ready to buy, even after I was crystal clear that I was buying the car for myself. Needless to say, I didn’t go back to that dealership.

[MarylandJOE]

@sly123

When we shop for appliances or cars the salesman without fail brush off or ignore my questions.

An ex-girlfriend of mine was a master at negotiating. I watched her mop the floor with a male car salesman.

Do some salespeople act inappropriately, sure. If the customer has knowledge they can turn those situations around.

[hebegebe]

@KnearSeattle

I’m genuinely curious. How often do you, personally, think about the fact that as a man you are more likely than a woman to be the victim of homicide?

I am in the subset of men that (hopefully correctly) feels safe in my surroundings.

[momofboiler1]

@MarylandJOE

Do some salespeople act inappropriately, sure. If the customer has knowledge they can turn those situations around.

Not a chance I’m going to give someone who behaves unprofessionally my business. And I’m the one who does all the car research in our family, creates the spread sheets, reads the performance reviews, and we both do the test driving. That’s one area where I have my husband’s full support. Thankfully we live in an area with lots of dealerships so we have options as consumers.

[MarylandJOE]

Oh, I don’t blame you. You deserve to be respected. I would take my money elsewhere too.

My point was that an educated woman can be a formidable consumer. I learned some good tactics from the ex-girlfriend.

[sly123]

I feel kinda insulted…. I’m fairly educated.

[momofboiler1]

I don’t know that I would use the word “situational” but there are plenty of other factors that impact “privilege” beyond just gender.

I certainly have plenty of my own privilege.

[MarylandJOE]

I absolutely apologize. I didn’t mean to even imply you were not. I’m sure you are.

I’m sure it’s frustrating feeling ignored by the salesman. I personally would get another salesperson or business that treated me better.