<p>Now some are suggesting he wasn’t beaten that badly? They beat an 80 year old man, slammed him to the ground, and broke his collarbone. Did you see the abrasion on his head?
To expect rationality from this particular individual after what he had emotionally and physically experienced is fairly ridiculous.
You break in to someone’s home to steal their belongings, you brutally beat the homeowner and now you are the victim?
I think not.</p>
<p>"unseemly situation rears its head, the responsibility to save myself and my family is a front line responsibility that I view as uniquely mine, not some police officers’ who may not arrive in time to assist. "</p>
<p>Oh, see, I think the Wild Wild West is unappealing. I get this guy defending his home. I don’t get carrying in public so you can play John Wayne. And who are we kidding? Are you trained in the same skills police officers have, or are innocent bystanders going to be the victims if you attempt to shoot at the bad guy?</p>
<p>That’s why we are all lucky this 80 yo guy got only the assailant, and not a bystander. </p>
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<p>Just as with anything, discretion is part of the equation. Pushing and minor things does not even rise to criminal in my book. Rude, yes; criminal, no.</p>
<p>Not sure why when someone says he has a gun that the first thing people think is that they will use it at the drop of a hat. That has proved not to be the case. There are hundreds of thousands (maybe millions now) of conceal carry permits and we do not see indiscriminate use as an issue anywhere. There is no data to support law abiding gun carriers are irresponsible. </p>
<p>However, I do agree that everyone should be concerned if an actual criminal(s) is in Starbucks, i.e., someone does not care about the law and would shoot someone who pushes them in line. And the concern there should be that if the criminal just starts shooting then no one may have a chance.</p>
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<p>Who is playing John Wayne? Again, there is no data to support that people are indiscriminately pulling guns on people. Well, the criminals in Chicago, Detroit, LA etc. excepted, but they have no care about getting a permit. </p>
<p>I believe you would be shocked at how many people around you carry and you are nice as day to them and they are nice as day to you and you have not a clue. </p>
<p>It is an irrational fear, which you are free to manufacture. But, it is a false fear. </p>
<p>If you’re next to me at Starbucks, how do I know you’re a law-abiding gun owner? For all I know, you’re the guy who is planning to hold up the store. </p>
<p>Anyway, isn’t that a little bit of a tautology? You’re a responsible gun owner, until the moment when you aren’t. </p>
<p>And the “good (amateur) guys with guns come to the rescue and saved the day” seems like a bunch of bs. How many times has that REALLY happened, that a bad guy with a gun started something in a public place and a good guy with a gun stopped it and prevented further harm?</p>
<p>Indeed, this 80 yo guy’s story was notable precisely because “the good guy putting an end to it” is so rare. </p>
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<p>In my case, it is concealed, so you would never know. Again, you interact with law abiding citizens who carry, and you are clearly not afraid of them because you are totally clueless that they have a gun. You harbor a manufactured fear.</p>
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<p>And everyone in a steakhouse is responsible knife wielding person until someone decides to stab someone in the heart with a steak knife.</p>
<p>Your fear of a gun is unfounded, as there are many, many ways to harm someone.</p>
<p>I hate to think our society has devolved to the point where so many people feel the need to be packing heat in public. It’s a bit depressing, quite frankly.</p>
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<p>You have your history backwards. Carrying was the norm in the country for a couple hundred years. It is only until recently that people have advocated against carrying. </p>
<p>In reality, there has been literally no shift in carrying attitudes among people who carry. However, there was in a shift in laws that restricted carrying of guns. Prior to registration and permits, carrying was actually the norm and percentage-wise there were a lot more people carrying than are carrying now.</p>
<p>I’m in France right now. It’s fascinating how in W Europe, ordinary citizens don’t have this alleged need to pack heat. </p>
<p>My state (IL) just passed concealed carry laws. So now many of our restaurants, etc have little signs on the door with a gun with a circle through it, indicating that concealed guns are not permitted here. It is really discomfiting to see this, because it unfortunately reminds me that there are parts of this country where it is indeed normal to walk around with a concealed weapon, and I’m ashamed that parts of our country think it’s normal, acceptable and good. Yee-haw. </p>
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<p>I don’t really care. I am a bit depressed that it would be necessary or even merely a perception that it would be necessary for citizens to be carrying instruments of death on their person at all times. This just doesn’t speak well for our species. JMO</p>
<p>“Your fear of a gun is unfounded, as there are many, many ways to harm someone.”</p>
<p>So why do you have to have a gun, then? If there are many ways to hurt someone.</p>
<p>Can’t have it both ways. Either a gun is better than anything else for self (and family) protection, or a gun is NBD because steak knives and baseball bats hurt people too. </p>
<p>“You have your history backwards. Carrying was the norm in the country for a couple hundred years. It is only until recently that people have advocated against carrying.”</p>
<p>Ewwww, no, none of my ancestors had guns. Gross! </p>
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<p>Well, of course not. In most of W Europe citizens do not have the right to carry, so of course they have no need. </p>
<p>The citizenry of most Europe has been effectually disarmed, and they are at the mercy of their governments and others with guns. </p>
<p>However, Switzerland proves that all men and women can freely and openly carry and still have a crime rate lower than France and just about any Western nation. I have never seen a more open gun culture than Switzerland and no one bats an eye.</p>
<p>For the record, I walk and drive around and feel much safer in armed-to-the-teeth Switzerland than I do in France. And, the crime data bears this out as well. </p>
<p>I wonder how much the fact that criminals know Swiss senior citizens are armed limits the home invasion and personal attacks issue there. I would venture a whole lot. I bet the 80 year-old man in this thread would have been safer in Switzerland than here where the criminals were hoping on him being unarmed.</p>
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<p>OK, I understand, but it is important for students reading this thread to understand the history of their country and not get caught up in false conjectures. Therefore, making sure the history is put into the correct context is important.</p>
<p>^Not to my personal opinion it isn’t. Everyone in society packing heat or feeling the need to pack heat was not the norm in my lifetime and <em>I</em> find the notion that this may be what we are coming to (or back around to) to be a sad fact of life and not a good sign of how our society continues to evolve.</p>
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<p>This is just wholly inaccurate. People were carrying, but it was not a political issue because there were no laws against carrying and no permit needed - that is the difference. </p>
<p>It only seems to have increased because people now need to get a permit. The norm, however, was carry for a long, long time by a lot of people.</p>
<p>This is where ignorance is bliss. Because people did not know others were carrying does not mean they were not carrying. </p>
<p>It is amazing how politics makes a situation seem like it grew when it actually shrank percentage-wise.</p>
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<p>No, our fears are not unfounded, and there are many reasons why. </p>
<p>Guns can harm people at a great distance. I can be driving with the windows closed and get shot in my car. I can be sitting in a restaurant and get hit by a bullet from yards away. That is not the case with a knife or most other false parallels you come up with. And it also takes away from the claim that having a gun of my own will make me safer. If I am walking down the street and approach a crazy guy with a knife, I can walk the other way. A crazy guy with a gun can harm people from all directions, even if they are running away, and even if they too are armed.</p>
<p>The other part–and I wish posters here would be honest about this–is the seeming lack of intelligence of many people in the pro-gun movement. (And I am not talking about the educated visitors to this site, so don’t flame me.) These are not people who instill confidence that they will be responsible with their weapons at all times. Read the weekly “GunFail” stories on DailyKos if you don’t believe me. How many people get shot while cleaning their own guns because they “thought” there were no bullets in them? How many innocent kids have to die because they get their hands on Daddy’s weapon after Daddy was too lazy/careless/stupid to put it out of reach? And does anyone feel safer when a guy shows up at the airport with his assault weapon and brandishes it in the direction of innocent passengers? Sorry but I don’t think so.</p>
<p>Regardless of the history argument, my opinion does not change: The fact that “we” as a society feel there is any need for civilians to carry instruments of death on their persons in public is a sad commentary on the human race. And that applies whether this belief is grounded in reality or whether it isn’t.</p>
<p>Right. There aren’t school mass-knifings or mass-baseball-batting. And c’mon. You’re not carrying a knife or a baseball bat around to defend yourself - you’re carrying a gun. Because you KNOW it’s more effective. Again, you can’t have it both ways. You want the thing that protects you to the extreme, and that is more dangerous than those other things. </p>
<p>"Well, of course not. In most of W Europe citizens do not have the right to carry, so of course they have no need.</p>
<p>The citizenry of most Europe has been effectually disarmed, and they are at the mercy of their governments and others with guns."</p>
<p>Oh, see, I don’t need to be paranoid that the gubmint is going to come after me and so I’d better have an arsenal in my backyard to protect against them storming my house. </p>