Match my daughter: ambitious rising junior with dual interests in STEM and writing [4.0 GPA, <$30k]

Chance Me / Match Me
41

I noted for a job - not grad school.

While students believe many years in advance they will go to grad school and they very well might, we all know that plans change. Some work a few years. Some do a post grad degree in another field.

I simply was looking up for entry level biomedical engineer jobs + ABET.

And many popped - no different than when my son sought his job a year+ ago.

In OP’s case - they’ll potentially have:

  1. Budget “pressures” but not issues because a student with these stats, will have many solid affordable options - especially if they “increase” the geography - but even some within

  2. Availability of the desired major - whatever it is.

  3. Employment - if - they are seeking a job that requires ABET accreditation and while not all do, many do and will.

There’s enough jobs out there requiring a bachelor degree and these didn’t continue with graduate degree preferred.

So I’d have to think there are available jobs for one with a grad degree - and I’m sure some sans ABET (I added ABET into my search).

If a student did go on school wise, there are other jobs avail too.

42

I was recently admonished for not having any “affiliation” with a certain set of schools I was commenting on.

Consistent with that comment, I agree that it would be helpful if posters limited their advice to subjects, careers or schools in which they had direct first hand experience. At a minimum it would be nice if posters acknowledged a lack of such experience as we all strive for CC to be both friendly and informative.

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Agree…find this first…then build your list up from there.

You don’t mention what state you reside in…but I’d start by looking at the public universities in that state. If you aren’t instate for William and Mary, I think it will be hard to get to your $30,000 price point.

Have you considered any of the SUNY colleges? Your student could get aid to bring the price down there…check SUNY Buffalo…I’ll let @aunt_bea explain why.

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From message 27 - so they will be in state for W&M.

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Is there some reason why she isn’t looking at many of the other instate public universities in Virginia? There are many…and she can study biology at most.

I can’t imagine going the MD/PhD route if she has zero interest in being a practicing physician. To get through medical school, she will need to do rotations in medical fields. @WayOutWestMom is MD/PhD really a good option for this kid?

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Agree with Thumper. For an MD/PhD she will be delivering babies, doing surgical and pediatric rotations, etc. If this isn’t what she wants, MD/PhD (a very long and hard track) should come off the table as even a discussion point.

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47

If there is zero interest in clinical practice, then a PhD may be a better option for OP’s daughter.

To complete med school, the daughter will need to do 2 years of clinical rotations. This is basic requirement of medical school. (rotations will include bread & butter fields like family medicine, internal medicine, ob/gyn, pediatrics, psychiatry, neurology, general surgery, plus a second year with more of the same only in greater depth plus a limited number of rotations in other clinical fields like orthopedics or anesthesia or pathology.)

To be licensed as a physician, your daughter will need to complete a medical residency. Those involve another 3-11 years of purely clinical training in a medical specialty.

MD/PhDs have even longer training programs. MD/PhDs will have research-based residencies which typically add 2-3 research years to the typical residency length. A research-based fellowship will add 1-2 year to the typical fellowship. Research years do not mean the resident will be spending those years solely in the lab–they will be back and forth between the lab and patient care in a hospital. (Being away from patient care means a young doctor-in-training loses critical patient care and diagnostic skills. Residencies aim to prevent that by rotating MD/PhDs in and out of patient care on a regular schedule.)

For MD/PhDs, unless they leave medicine altogether by going into consulting or industry will work at academic medical centers or perhaps at government sponsored research institution like the NIH. Even at those place, clinical practice will be part of the job description. The very best splits between clinical practice and research lab will be 30-70. Many are 50-50 or even 75-25.

MD/PHDs working at academic centers have to “buy” their time back from the hospital–which assume they will spend 90-95% of their time seeing patients. This means the young MD/PhD needs to be get major research grants from funding sources outside the hospital to get release time for research. The typical age for a first R01 grant for young researcher is now somewhere into their mid 40. (Just checked. The median age is 47-49 for first R01 grant.)

So if research is your daughter’s primary goal, a MD/PhD --a route that is longer and significantly lower-paying than either just medicine or just research-- is probably not the right pathway for her.

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48

She’ll definitely look at UVA, but I think it’s a long shot considering where we are in Virginia (competitive). She is not enthusiastic about VA tech or JMU. Ideally she would like a mid sized school so even though UVA is great it is bigger than ideal for her. She really liked the vibe at W&M.

As for the MD/phD route, I don’t think that she would have issues with the clinical rotations. She just doesn’t want to be a practicing doctor for the rest of her life. She’s more interested in helping the world through research and ideas than hands on with patients. I honestly know very little about science fields outside of medicine - my father was a doctor - so am trying to educate myself on the possibilities for degrees and careers in science fields. I know absolutely nothing about engineering.

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Wow, this is really helpful and eye opening. I need an education on routes and careers for regular PhD graduates. My husband and I are both in the arts and this is so daunting to us.

50

You might reach out to an MD PHD and ask for an informational interview.

I am seeing an MD PHD. He treats a few days and is doing research. They also partake in drug trials.

There are also research nurses and more. As I’m learning, there’s a crazy large network of healthcare professionals, at least in an academic hospital.

Interestingly my cousin does something in Peds and is an MD / PHD as well. Her major was math.

I’m sure - if you had questions and it might not be for years as it’s very early - but you will find someone nice enough to spend time answering questions for your daughter.

51

I can’t post it because it doesn’t allow you to post college vine but I googled Summer Engineering high school bio engineering and 25 programs came up.

Additionally, I know both Purdue and Rose Hulman have “affordable” programs and while they won’t be bioengineering specific - they’ll have content. STEP at Purdue is what affirmed my son’s interest (he changed majors four times his junior year) - and I’ve read many positive stories on here about both.

You don’t know about engineering - and while I’m not an engineer, having been through this with my son just 6 years ago - and while I know there’s cost, I think in this case, it’d be a very helpful step for you. My son had 4 ideas of what to major in but truly didn’t know - and the STEP program cemented his plan. And btw - if he didn’t like it, that would have been ok too - then he wouldn’t have applied to a school for engineering.

As for is accreditation (ABET) important for biomedical, you will notice most - but not all big names - have it - and many jobs - if that becomes a desire before more schooling, will require it.

There are schools that don’t for their own reasons. Washington & Lee has engineering that isn’t ABET accredited. They say:

Throughout the history of our engineering program, we have not sought accreditation through the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET). This decision is rooted in our desire to provide our students with a broad range of courses in engineering while allowing students the flexibility to focus on their interests. Though our objectives are in harmony with accredited engineering programs, we believe it is our student-centered approach that affords majors the unique foundation upon which they build success after graduation.

Stanford offers a lot of engineering majors but is accredited in just two. I think their name is an exception.

In the US alone, there’s 166 schools ABET accredited in Bio and Biomedical engineering. And 41 in Biological engineering.

In many cases, a school your student will choose that has a major will likely have accreditation. For example, JHU is accredited. Maybe similar in some ways - Lehigh is accredited.

On the other hand, your student is unlikely (but not impossible) to ever become an engineer at W&M. Of course, if she wants an MD/PHD - that may not matter.

That’s why I suggest a program next summer. A lot of topics sound good on the surface - but you don’t really know about them until you’re exposed. And so it would be worth the investment of time and money (prices vary) to gain this experience. They’ll talk, at least they did at Purdue, about accreditation and it’s meaning in the program and it’s a great place to ask that question.

Having been with a student who “wasn’t sure”, I think it’s a great path to follow. And I’m sure it would be for your student as well so you go into application season with a more precise design of what you want. And a school list to match it.

Good luck.

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52

What about the University of SC? She may get merit and honors, and they have a variety of biology related majors that may interest her.

Try the NPC for Wake Forest.

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53

One thing I want to clarify is that there are different types of activities that are considered "research"and there are different kinds and different levels of involvement in research. All research is not the same.

The first is basic research. Basic research is exploring fundamental questions in science or medicine for the purpose of understanding how things work. How does a phase change in X material work? How does a plaque form in the brain? How do prions form in nature? How did the first cellular ancestors of life on earth form? . If I disable this specific gene in a mouses’ brain, what effect will it have on the functioning of the animal? Basic research is not expected to necessarily have practical applications in the real world. I’st finding answers for the sake of finding answers for the sake of finding answers. A lot of academic and governmental science research falls into this category.

Applied research explores how can we exploit a basic scientific or medical discovery for practical use. If we insert this ion into the crystal lattice of Z material, will it make electrons pass more easily or less easily through the material? If we tweak the chemical composition of a storage battery, will it improve its charge capacity and efficiency? How can I insert an intact/healthy gene into the cell with a defective gene and will that gene now function in the cell ? Applied research often has real world implications and uses.

For bioscience/biomedical fields, there is a 3rd category: clinical research. Clinical research looks at how certain devices/vaccines/surgeries/medications work in practice with large groups of individuals. Most research done in hospitals by doctors (even MD/PhDs), nurses, public health officers, epidemiologists, etc is clinical research. The purpose of clinical research is determine best practices in how to treat certain diseases or conditions. One does not need a PhD to be involved in clinical research. And there are different levels of involvement from those at the very top who devise the new proposed therapeutics to those who design how the trial is set up all the way down to a nurse or MA who administers the vaccine/medication.

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Actually, of all the possibilities discussed thus far, the least costly in the long-run might be a fully funded PhD in Biological Engineering. And - full disclosure- I know nothing about Engineering.

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What I think is going to be hard for you is that if your D goes to the high school I’m guessing she attends, it’s so hard to not compare your lists and schools with the other extremely high achievers, and equally hard to block out the noise about the “best” schools.

Totally unrelated to helping her build a list, but if you haven’t already, I’d encourage you and her to come up with a response when people ask where she’s looking. Something generic like “I’m trying to build a list that balances my interests with affordability” or just “I’ve decided I don’t want to talk about that until it’s over and a decision is made - sort of like not sharing a baby name until the baby is here and named!”

The kids are so competitive and comparative with each other, the more she can step out of that, the better her next two years will be.

We also live in NoVa and while my S25 doesn’t go to the science magnet, he does go to a very challenging public school. He refuses to consider JMU because “it’s like [name of his HS] 2.0 mom” and “I’ve worked harder than that and should be able to go to a better school”. Sure, his grades/scores/activities likely translate to something more challenging to get into. But JMU has a really strong program in one of his potential majors and he would be competitive for a full ride scholarship. Won’t consider it.

It’s really hard to block out the negative comments associated with some of these schools that aren’t name brand high end schools. Unfortunately, if you build a list with a focus on price or merit aid, you’re going to get a lot of schools that her peers won’t have heard of. They are still very good schools with very good programs and picking the school that fits all the criteria - including financial - is important. But she may prefer to not talk about that early, because the second guessing and comments from peers can be rough.

(Sorry for the random off topic soliloquy!)

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This site offers specific suggestions:

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Biological engineering often has more of an agricultural emphasis than biomedical engineering or bioengineering.

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Please read again the very detailed response above from @WayOutWestMom . The MD/PhD will be doing patient care as part of their jobs.

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This student just completed her sophomore year of HS. While I understand that she is smart, ambitious etc….I also think she has time to figure out her career path. Keep in mind she may change her mind many, many times over the next few years…as she is exposed to new classes, new people, and new experiences. It is also possible she will decide in a year and not look back.

I agree that if she doesn’t want patient contact, an MD/PhD might not work for her. I say this as somebody with a close family member in an MD/PhD program.

My advice is to apply to a mix of affordable schools - use the NPCs for schools that meet full need, and seek out merit as needed.

Research the majors and make sure there is enough variety, take a look at the biology majors and the biology dept, and talk to students and profs about research opportunities and how easy it is to get them.

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I missed this. She has a LOT of years to decide really what she will and won’t actually do.

If this is still her interest when she does college applications…then yes, research bio departments etc. BUT I agree fully with choosing a college with a large menu of majors.

And adding. The net price calculators are being set for students starting college fall 2025. This kid will be starting fall 2026, right? So view the NPC results with caution, and as an estimate. The 2026-2027 NPC use tax year info from 2024, and that year is not yet over. And yes, financial aid policies and formulas do change at some colleges…as does the cost of attendance (which is not likely to go down).

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