<p>“It’s also a much different model of thinking. Far more advanced than in prior years. Teaching to the test is going to take a while, but if it is ever achieved, success on those tests will show real preparation for college.”</p>
<p>I disagree. They will just drill the kids over and so they will learn to recognize what this new test is asking them. Same thing I did when my kid did horribly on his PSAT/PLAN. I hired a tutor to teach him how to take the test.</p>
<p>We don’t have to agree, that’s prefectly fine. I happen to think that it is a very different model since my son took the one last year and this one is different and is less about drilling and more about thinking. Which is a good thing. If you think I was criticizing the test, I wasn’t. Different is not a bad thing. Clearly the prior model wasn’t doing the job. Yes, I do think it will eventually be mastered by the students and teachers. I’m just not sure how long that will take.</p>
<p>If students learn nothing else, which apparently is what is happening in some places, there is value in at least knowing how to take a test.</p>
<p>Dumbed down or not, I don’t think one can generalize that these tests are bad for all students everywhere. As a parent, I want to know that my child is up to speed with “national” expectations for learning. When my S was in private school with no standardized tests distributed to the parents (altho I know they administered them there too - ha), I had some concerns about whether he was progressing normally against a national picture, and no way to obtain an objective measure of that. He was not at the top of the class.</p>
<p>In those terribly-performing schools, I would be very concerned if students could not achieve a near-average score on a dumbed-down test. I do not oppose drills as learning tools; in fact, one reason I removed my S from public school at one point, was because they did not do math drills. He was the type of kid who needed that type of learning. The teacher told me to do that at home with him with flash cards :(.</p>
<p>I do not believe Matt Damon was being hypocrital. If he had used vouchers to send his kids to private schools then condemned vouchers I would see that as hypocritical. I don’t believe he condemned people who chose and paid to send their kids to private school. </p>
<p>As a rule I support vouchers. I believe those who live in low performing public school district and care about their childrens education should be allowed options. I don’t care if it’s means based or not. Most of the lower performing districts are in inner cities. Those districts are going to have their issues which stem from problems outside of what educators can reasonably solve. Some schools are nothing more than education prisons. Any child who might want to learn would find it difficut at best and most likely impossible. I’ve mentioned before if you do not give the average income parent who cares about their children’s education an option they will move to a better district. The upper income parents are fine they can afford to send their children to the school of their choice, the poor have no choice regardless of their values concerning education and the middle class will vote with their vehicles. If it’s important to them they will move. What is left in the district are parents and students who care little if they are educated or those that even if they do, have no choices. That does not make for a compelling future for our cities.</p>
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<p>Sorry, but I disagree with your disagreement. :)</p>
<p>Assuming your tutor worked on math, your kid also learned reasoning skills, bcos good temporal reasoning skills is what it takes to score well on SAT-M. And reasoning skills cannot be drilled. (And unfortunately, aren’t much taught in HS.)</p>
<p>“Assuming your tutor worked on math, your kid also learned reasoning skills, bcos good reasoning skills is what it takes to score well on SAT-M. And reasoning skills cannot be drilled. (And unfortunately, aren’t much taught in HS.)”</p>
<p>No, only CR.</p>
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<p>The human instinct to reproduce is restrained by concern about how to provide for one’s offspring. That’s why fertility declines in a recession. If you tell the least productive and responsible members of society that the state will take care of their children, they will have more children and make social problems worse. The illegitimacy rate has risen to 40% in the U.S., and the welfare state has enabled that.</p>
<p>“Any you are complaining the curriculum isn’t anti-American enough? Hahaha.”</p>
<p>You could phrase it that way, but it wouldn’t be true to the sentiments behind my statement. </p>
<p>When I took AP US history, I was really struck by the realization for the first time that the US has not always been right in its endeavors, and I think the reason why it took me so long to realize this is because the curriculum that I had always been taught painted US actions in a very positive light. Of course, there were some blights covered, like slavery, the Trail of Tears, a brief touch on Japanese internment, but overall the sense was that our wars were always just, for the betterment of the world, and that we were always the victor. Maybe they teach it that way because it’s easier to process and it’s hard to explain to kids why our leaders have chosen to do pretty bad things, and it’s fun to look at past presidents as American heroes. I also think zoosermom very also very well be correct in point out that maybe the word policing is too nuanced on a dumbed-down test. </p>
<p>Another aside, I really don’t believe there is a flaw in the standards to which future teachers are held in their curricula. It could be because my undergraduate school had such an extensive and well-regarded teaching program, but the classes that my friends took to become teachers were hard. A friend who is a physics major dropped teaching as part of his curriculum because the classes were harder to him than upper-level physics. Future teachers were also held to higher disciplinary standards and multiple infractions could get them booted from the program. Every student had to complete a semester of observation and a semester of student teaching. I think it’s kind of funny that my university apparently deems first year graduate students acceptable candidates to teach certain university courses, but there’s no way in heck that we’d be allowed to get in front of a room of middle-schoolers. </p>
<p>I really feel for teachers these days. I think a lot of them go into it with the absolute best intentions and find that they’re spending most of the day disciplining rather than teaching. It can be exhausting and disheartening, and I can see why some essentially just give up.</p>
<p>Those AP courses have got to be the worst examples of “teaching to the test.”</p>
<p>Hunt:“I think you have to find ways to educate these problem kids in spite of their parents–probably with things like longer school days, multiple meals, social services in the school, etc.–all things that cost a lot of money.”</p>
<p>All of the above treat the affects of their culture, not the problem. You need to undo the affects of 5 decades of the degregation of the traditional family. What these children have never learned is respect. By the time they reach school (and I mean preschool)many children are beyond the help schools can provide. You can feed them, babysit them, talk to them but that will not make them better students unless they choose to be. A mother and father who teach their child respect will do more to improve a childs educational opportunities than all the free food in the world. Should we help these kids? Yes, but let’s not pretend it’s education or that it will make better students. You are merely shortchanging all the kids out there who have learned to respect authority and who are willing to learn. If you are not going to allow vouchers then the whole system of education needs to be changed. Inner city gifted schools can offer AP classes and opportunities typically offered in suburban publics and private institutions, traditional schools for the kids who show a willingness and aptitude for learning and finally a strict facility where social and vocational skills are taught and security is high. Inner city schools may have to do away with the neighborhood school concept except in those areas where it appropriate. However, this time instead of attempting to integrate schools for racial purposes you will providing opportunities for both those who desire education and those who are unwilling and unprepared socially to learn. To continue to do what we’ve been doing and expecting better results is insane.</p>
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This is pretty much what I was suggesting upthread. It will cost a lot of money to do this–and the biggest slug of money will have to go to those problem kids who didn’t learn respect at home. I think that’s part of what makes it hard to make changes of this kind.</p>
<p>I’m afraid it’s not as simple as some think. I wonder if our particular experiences with school systems influence what we think is going on- those who are engaged versus those who have kids in less stellar systems and those CC parents whose kids don’t experience the same level of problems because they are extracted to some better track.</p>
<p>My system includes great variety of family situations. Many newcomers who are striving. Budget limitations. And very strong unions, opposed to changes. as I noted, the problems become more apparent in middle school, especially among some boys.</p>
<p>Btw, you know many low performing schools do offer AP’s, right?</p>
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We can provide all of those things and in some places, we do, but that won’t fundamentally change the human beings. You can’t force someone to actually learn something. You can sit him there, feed him, keep him safe, but you can’t make him learn or retain anything. We have to still keep trying and trying new things, but we aren’t going to succeed with the kids until we change the parents. Most parents truly love their kids and want the best for them. Unfortunately, entirely too often they either don’t know what would be best or don’t know how to get there. When you get a parent and motivate him or her on behalf of his or her child, real change is possible with the right support. And better parenting is extremely beneficial to children.</p>
<p>I guess I’m just not sure it’s possible to change the parents once they already are parents–at least, the most dysfunctional ones. I hope some of these things will help these kids be better parents.</p>
<p>Well, you know, I don’t think there is one solution, but my daughter’s school had excellent success with making opportunities available to the parents for classes, seminars, all sorts of things. Now, of course, those are the parents motivated to accept the support offered, but making it available was a great help to the families. I think it also helpd that it all occurred right within the community so it was comfortable for the families to be there, if that makes any sense at all.</p>
<p>At the level of the most dysfunctional, the only real alternative is to remove the kids. The questions would then be what to do with the kids and do we have the stomach to actually do it. At the level of most dysfunctional, I think I would if there were good placements. Which is why I do like the idea of high-quality boarding schools.</p>
<p>I think you have to try a lot of different things, ZM–and if that works for some families, it’s worth doing.</p>
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Maybe so, but because of them, S1 is on track to graduate on time with a double major, so I can’t complain.</p>
<p>North Carolina recently passed a voucher program to allow low-income families in failing schools to get money to send their kids to participating private schools. Here is a direct quote from a news article interviewing a teacher at one such participating school: “I hope it will bring in students that we’ve not had that chance to minister to before,” said Linda Barker, a teacher at Raleigh Christian Academy. Notice she said MINISTER, not TEACH. A significant number of Christian schools in the area require student’s families to sign and adhere to a “Statement of Faith” and to regularly attend a “bible-based” church. Many emphasize the teaching of religion at least as much as the teaching of academic subjects. This is not how I want my tax dollars spent. I’ve yet to find guidelines on how a school becomes a “participating school”, but I’m hoping the local Islamic academy will apply. Should be interesting to see if they get approved to be a “participating school”.</p>
<p>^ Not surprising this is going on in NC. The state legislature introduced a resolution a while back that the state has a right to declare a state religion (I will leave it up to all your imaginations which religion that would be.) </p>
<p>In Tennessee the legislature pulled a bill which was going to allow vouchers to private schools but withdrew it when they realized it meant that some of the money could go to Islamic schools. </p>
<p>My H and I have often pondered moving to a warmer climate but the stuff these states and others of that ilk do, or even try to do, makes it impossible for us. The only choices I seem to have are out of the country or CA.</p>
<p>My great dream is to retire to North Carolina. By the time we get there, I will be far beyond having kids in any school system and I consider myself to have earned, over the decades I spent volunteering, the right to say “I don’t care and I’m not getting involved anymore.”</p>