<p>For the record, I didn’t. I was talking about Catholic schools (because riprorin had been talking about Catholic schools), which have paid noticeably less than independent schools everywhere I’ve taught (and which I believe also did so when I attended one). And I have tried to be clear to restrict my generalizations to Catholic schools in the places where I know something about them. If I haven’t done that well, I apologize.</p>
<p>Not that it’s really the point, but like your Lutheran school, MichiganGeorgia, the Jewish day school where I used to teach was working very hard when I left it (for reasons having nothing to do with salary) to shrink (but not to close completely) the wage gap between it and the local public schools. It also had pretty darn high tuition, even after a substantial subsidy from the local Jewish federation. And–perhaps coincidentally and perhaps not–it had the most comprehensive system of teacher evaluations of the private schools where I have taught.</p>
<p>Some organizations might not be aware that unions are illegal in Texas. If it quacks, chances are it might be a duck. Different birds of the same feathers. Dues bring power. Power brings control. Control brings protection. Protection brings inefficiency. </p>
<p>All semantics. Just as the CBA not being about working fewer than half a year on a daily basis. The results are the same. Less for more is the motto, regardless of the organization disguise.</p>
<p>"Quote:I went to school back in the 60’s and 70’s and we did not have many discipline problems. WHY? because back then they allowed corporal punishment.</p>
<p>I think it had to do with the fact that many more people had a mother and a father that taught and demanded respect. If you learn to respect your parents you more easily respect other authority. I believe illegitimacy is a major predictor of poor educational attainment as well as crime and poverty. The illegitimacy rates in this country (and especially the cities) have more than doubled since you (and I) went to school. Where you have high rates of illegitimacy you will have poor schools.</p>
<p>This discussion is like the pool of water that keeps spreading. So, I’ll add this: I think school, as it has been structured, is flat out boring for many. It doesn’t meet their present needs and a segment can’t see how it feeds their futures. I’m all for exposure to Shakespeare and sufficient math skills, but have you ever asked yourself if that problem kid needs, really needs, to fit the scene, as it IS? Sitting at a desk, raising his hand, the system of rewards, etc? All that conformity. </p>
<p>I happen to know a bunch of single moms with “illegitimate” kids. (How long since I’ve even heard that term used.) Knew them through a job I held that was purely assigned by merit.* These were hardworking, loving mothers. Support from their families (not all matriarchies.) Various levels of education and all capable of the work and responsible. Some also part-timing comm college. Hard to generalize. I do, however, have little to no respect for baby daddies who wander in and out.</p>
<p>As I understand it, rates of unwed motherhood have risen in various class and educational levels.</p>
<p>*Merit was one test. Not subjective. Not based on prior experiences.</p>
<p>I think that the mindset of some parents has changed from being a parent to wanting to be their kids best friend… so you have kids who don’t behave and don’t respect the teachers. Basically there is no reason for them to behave because there are no consequences.</p>
<p>I don’t have the answer but it seems like the problem is growing.</p>
<p>07Dad-
It’s easier to produce high test scores when you have a homogeneous population with few students for whom English is a second language. I’m not saying this is the reason for SD and ND’s relatively high scores, just pointing out that it is a multifaceted issue. For instance, as another poster pointed out, teacher salaries can also be associated with COL in the local area. It would be interesting to see the table of teacher salaries by state adjusted for COL.</p>
<p>I grew up in the 70s. Girls could get “licks,” but they had to be given by a female teacher, usually a coach or PE teacher. I don’t recall anyone getting corporal punishment after junior high, though that doesn’t necessarily mean it didn’t happen. In general, it seemed the girls were less likely to push the envelope hard enough to be deemed deserving of corporal punishment. Finally, if memory serves, the “paddle” wasn’t brought out for minor infractions, and certainly not for lack of academic prowess as was mentioned earlier.</p>
<p>I’m glad this kind of punishment has largely fallen out of favor. IMO it should be illegal.</p>
<p>Sue22–you can make some educated guesses by using this calculator and comparing the living wage to the wages of the education sector for each state. The greater the earnings per hour above the living wage the “better” paid the teacher is in relation to the state living wage.</p>
<p>I think it is illegal now unless a student goes to a private school like the one in Illinois I mentioned earlier where a parent has to sign saying it’s ok.</p>
<p>I don’t think you have to be anti-union to be disgusted about some of the “anecdotes” about teachers not losing their jobs in LAUSD. It wasn’t until John Deasy came along and upended that apple cart until things actually changed a little, for the better. </p>
<p>We have all seen teachers who should have found another profession, but for whatever reason stayed. In LAUSD, some have had committed actual crimes against children. They have a safe job but aren’t doing their work, and it is the students suffering. </p>
<p>Or they are paid while their disciplinary cases are under review, at added costs to district. </p>
<p>I was actually delighted when acquaintance of mine didn’t get tenure at LAUSD. He was a slacker and from things he shared with us, absolutely incompetent in the classroom. He actually asked my daughter, 10 at the time, for advice about how to discipline students n the classroom. He showed movies without parental consent that were not on approved viewing list. After four months of teaching, the principal removed him from classroom and put him on leave. In the meantime, those kids got the shaft and did not learn a whole lot…</p>
<p>But he could have just as easily gotten tenure at one of the other LAUSD schools.</p>
<p>Absent a union contract, it probably depends on the law of the state. I.e., whether a teacher can be fired “at will” or can only be fired “for cause.”</p>
<p>I leave for 5 days and the issues being discussed are still the same. How do we evaluate and rid ourselves of bad teachers in public schools?</p>
<p>It makes sense that Matt Damon won’t send his kids to public schools in the Palisades; they are in the LAUSD, where as Sikorsky points out, virtually no crappy teachers ever get fired. No wonder he made the decision to go private.</p>
<p>If you really want to be shocked, read through second link. Click on full story for each one.</p>
<p>And, it wasn’t just one teacher involved, either.</p>
<p>When people like me complain about unions or tenure, these are things that bug us. It isn’t the protection from unlawful firings, or negotiated health benefits or contracts. I am thrilled that good teachers have that. There are wonderful teachers out there. </p>
<p>There are also people like this teacher, the other teacher, the teachers aide (convicted in 2005) who are sick and given protections in their job and legal help. Can you imagine? Perpetrating sexual crimes on children and then getting to keep your pension and to have your contract bought out? Really? </p>
<p>How many years, how many pricipals or other staff had suspicions? Why was this swept under the rug? Do you know how long it took from first complaint before anything was done to remove this teacher? </p>
<p>Sometimes it takes up to three years to fire teachers for cause, and generally LAUSD is paying these teachers on leave. Shameful.</p>
<p>As I said earlier I blame the administration of the school. What were they paid to do?</p>
<p>As for the length of the hearings fix that. There is no reason there can not be rules on how a hearing will be conducted.
Many times the delay is on the management side because they have no case.</p>
<p>Bay I will attempt to find the article but I once read that the termination rate for teachers is very low even in non-union, non-tenure and private schools. The highest rate of teachers either being let go or not returning voluntarily is the initial 3 or 4 years but it is relatively similar across the board at all types of schools.</p>