<p>*"Many of these schools are not going to have students with even an ACT 28 on campus. "</p>
<p>I doubt that you find good number of ACT 28- in a pool of Med. School applicants. I would imagine that most are ACT 30+. That is my guess, no supporting statistical data.
*</p>
<p>that’s my point. Those with ACT 28- are likely going to end up with MCATs that are too low to be successful med school applicants (if not a URM)</p>
<p>If you’re not a URM, and you don’t start out with an ACT of at least a 29, I think that chances are lower that you’re going to end up with the GPA and MCAT needed to be a strong contender for MD med school. not impossible, but just a lowered chance. </p>
<p>the students (from my kids’ high school) that I know that have had success getting into MD schools this year and last year all had ACT 30+…which I suspect means that they got MCATs of 30+. The one that I know that could only get into a DO school had an ACT 28. I suspect that his MCAT was sub 30.</p>
<p>Haven’t been following this thread much but did notice my ears were burnin in one of mcat2’s recent posts. </p>
<p>To find the matrix I originally posted, google “Table 24: MCAT and GPA grid” and the PDF file from the AAMC will be your top hit. The reason I particularly like this grid is because it shows the percent of applicants with any MCAT/GPA combo who gain admissions to at least one medical school during a previous application cycle (2008?). I really just used it for some peace of mind–that ~75% of kids with my stats get accepted, so the likelihood of me getting accepted seemed pretty high.</p>
<p>And well, I guess my conclusion was right–picked up an acceptance in December.</p>
<p>My general opinion is that in order to pick up an acceptance somewhere, you have to be able to distinguish yourself. Generally speaking, it seems like there are 4 arenas for distinction: hard numbers (GPA/MCAT), “soft” features (resume, extracurriculars), recommendation letters, and secondaries. From personal experience I know that having (what CC believes to be) lackluster performance in just one of those areas (for me, GPA/MCAT with a 3.8/30) will not exclude one from medical school provided the other arenas are superior (which I believe mine to be!). Extrapolating from that, I wouldn’t be surprised if an applicant with great numbers (say, 3.9/37), pretty good soft features, and stellar recs and secondaries would pick up a few acceptances too. </p>
<p>Seems like balance is key.</p>
<p>And for what it’s worth, 3 out of the 3 top 20s where I interviewed made a point to tell all interviewees that after an interview is granted, GPA and MCAT scores no longer play a role in admissions decisions because interviewers and reviewers are blind to that information. Could it be that I just found 3 schools that do that? Maybe. Or is it that elite programs “just” want applicants to meet basic thresholds? Probably.</p>
<p>Kristin, thanks for the grid. If all things are equal, DS has 90% of chance to get into at least one med school, hopefully >90% if the undergraduate colleges matter somewhat. Now I feel better. LOL</p>
<ul>
<li><p>there are more applicants in the 27-29 range than in 30-32.</p></li>
<li><p>75% of all scores are <30. </p></li>
<li><p>25% of applicants from Emory had a <30 last year, to use just one top college as an example.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>Exactly how I felt! It’s tough to remember to put everything into a much bigger context. If acceptances and interviews are any indication, then I’m a pretty competitive applicant. But compared to my friends, I’m right in there with the average. On CC, I’d venture that among my peers I’m probably below average–out of the kids this cycle, I seem to be the one with the fewest acceptances and the fewest interviews. But does that mean much when the sample size is so small? To be average among other great applicants (my friends, my CC peers) certainly does not indicate that I am an average applicant on a much bigger scale. Realizing this took me a ridiculously long time!</p>
<p>Your kiddo needs to be a great applicant to win acceptance somewhere. For better or worse, by soliciting advice on this thread you are surrounding yourself with a combination of a) parents whose kids are in med school (thus were successful), b) med students/residents who likely used this site in their application process (thus were successful), c) future med students (like myself!), and d) parents of premeds or premeds themselves, who are likely slated to be strong applicants by the fact that they’re taking the initiative to be really well-versed in what it takes to be a strong applicant.</p>
<p>In no way is CC a snapshot of the applicant pool. Seems to be a pretty accurate picture of the top of the applicant pool–of the success stories. So if your son seems to fit in well with the people on this site…then there’s probably no need to cross your fingers for him–his candidacy will speak for itself.</p>
<p>kristin,
"My general opinion is that in order to pick up an acceptance somewhere, you have to be able to distinguish yourself. "</p>
<p>-I tend to have a different opinion. I tend to think that numbers should be there. EC’s - well, everybody seem to have them in various combo. It feels that some schools will cut applicants below certain number and nothing will help. But, we all have experince with different set of Med. Schools, so we both might be correct in our opinions.</p>
<p>*3 out of the 3 top 20s where I interviewed made a point to tell all interviewees that after an interview is granted, GPA and MCAT scores no longer play a role in admissions decisions because interviewers and reviewers are blind to that information. Could it be that I just found 3 schools that do that? Maybe. Or is it that elite programs “just” want applicants to meet basic thresholds? Probably. *</p>
<p>Interesting. So, when interviewers are asking about unusual courses or minors you may have taken, are they just seeing a transcript without any grades on it? What are they looking at when they are talking to you?</p>
<p>Perhaps I should amend my original statement to include “once you’ve met minimum numbers thresholds, in order to pick up an acceptance somewhere, you have to be able to distinguish yourself.” And it seems like there are many ways to distinguish oneself, which presumably vary by applicant.</p>
<p>It’s a bummer that it’s challenging to determine what, if any, threshold a school uses. Using myself as one GPA/MCAT datapoint, I applied decently early (was complete mid-September) to a nice mix of 13 schools and by January had only heard from 5 of them (acceptance, 3 interviews (results still pending), rejection). The two theories I have for lack of news from the other 8: a) I didn’t meet their numbers thresholds, thus I was a silent rejection or b) the schools saw where I’d been invited for interviews (comments from a dean of admissions at a top school indicate they have access to such information) and assumed I’d choose one of those over their own school, thus decided not to waste time and resources interviewing me.</p>
<p>Would a few MCAT points have helped me get more interviews? Sadly the world will never know. But the beauty of it is…it doesn’t matter! And I don’t care :)</p>
<p>While the number of sub 30 MCAT apps may be high, the success rate is more important.</p>
<p>*I doubt that you find good number of ACT 28- in a pool of Med. School applicants. I would imagine that most are ACT 30+. That is my guess, no supporting statistical data. *</p>
<p>Those with ACT 28- are likely going to end up with MCATs that are too low to be successful med school applicants (if not a URM). there may be many applying with sub30 MCATs, but what % are successful without some 3.9 GPA and URM status?</p>
<p>it stands to reason that if half of med school applicants aren’t successful that a good many of that “half” have sub 30 MCATs and are not URMs.</p>
<p>I believe that’s exactly the case. The 2 schools that went into further detail about their selections process mentioned that coursework information is available to interviewers but grades are blinded to them (isn’t that awkward phrasing? Why do they say things like that?). It’s worth mentioning that with “only” 30 minutes to talk with these interviewers, rarely was any individual course brought up. Individual courses were mentioned much more when I was interviewing at my school’s med school (hour long interviews) likely because of familiarity with coursework and individual professors.</p>
<p>As for what are they physically looking at, at one it was a stapled packet of papers that presumably included lots of info about my application, at another it was a single sheet with areas for notes, and at the third it was a computer screen (set off to the side of the desk so it wasn’t between us).</p>
<p>And also, to lend some numbers to your suggestion in 129:</p>
<p>From table 24 (AAMC’s data for applicants who matriculate to medical school)</p>
<p>27-29: 42.6% of applicants accepted for all GPA ranges (jumps to 67% for applicants with GPA >3.8) 24-26: 25.1% for all GPA ranges (jumps to 42% for applicants with GPA >3.8) <24: <25% for all GPA ranges including GPA >3.8</p>
<p>Similarly, there are trends for GPA:</p>
<p>>3.8: 72% for all MCAT scores (jumps to 82% for MCAT >30) 3.6-3.79: 55% for all MCAT scores (jumps to 72% for MCAT >30) 3.4-3.59: 40% for all MCAT scores (jumps to 67% for MCAT >33, 55% for MCAT >30)</p>
<p>So AAMC concludes in the MSAR that the numbers to shoot for are about 3.6 and 30, which is combination of statistics at which >50% of applicants are accepted. And it goes without saying, the highest numbers you can personally achieve are the best ones to aim for!</p>
<p>Does the grid show percentage of URMs in those numbers??..based on what I have observed, I think that the percentage admitted would be heavily URM…</p>
<p>Just can’t see an unhooked/unconnected male Caucasian with a high GPA and <27 having better than a 25% shot anywhere and guessing that same GPA with a 27-28 are not much higher for anything but very low tier schools at best. The USNWR ranking pressure is too great and can be forgiven for URM admits of both sexes, not male Caucasians or Asians.</p>
<p>A somewhat educated guess but think it’s an accurate conclusion.</p>
<p>I think this is very true and especially true for this forum. Not only are the premeds and med school students on here self-selected individuals, but also the high schoolers that discuss in the SAT forum, Ivy League forums, etc. are, for the most part, 97+ percentile scorers with a large concentration of 99+ percentile scorers.</p>
<p>***27-29: 42.6% of applicants accepted for all GPA ranges <a href=“jumps%20to%2067%%20for%20applicants%20with%20GPA%20%3E3.8”>/B</a>
24-26: 25.1% for all GPA ranges (jumps to 42% for applicants with GPA >3.8)
<24: <25% for all GPA ranges including GPA >3.8
*</p>
<p>Maybe it’s just me, but I think that an MCAT 29 (about 72th percentile) is quite different from an MCAT 27 (about 60th percentile). Therefore, I wonder how many of that 42% had the MCAT 29? </p>
<p>And, again, we don’t know how many were URMs or female. After all, we’ve been kind of told that a girl with an MCAT 29 is viewed as similar to a boy with an MCAT 30 (with all else equal). </p>
<p>*I doubt that you find good number of ACT 28- in a pool of Med. School applicants. </p>
<p>Actually, the mean for applicants is 28, so there are a "good number’ in the app pool. </p>
<p>*</p>
<p>Note that I was talking ACT not MCAT. It’s just my feeling that those who start college with an ACT 28 and an A/B average are going to have a rougher time getting the needed GPA and MCAT to be a strong med school applicant.</p>
<p>When someone’s ACT/SAT test scores are about the 90th percentile going into college with a good, but not top GPA, it may be too hard for them to emerge with the GPA and MCAT that would make them a strong med school applicant (if not a URM).</p>
<p>*Per Kristin’s link- 2500 people applied with a 5-14 MCAT wow, what were they thinking, but 15 of them got in! *</p>
<p>When I see those weird stats, I can’t help but wonder what unusual situation they must have in order to have been accepted? military? vast medical experience in some other field? what???</p>
Could somebody who is more experienced on this help confirm whether the schools know where an applicant was invited for interviews by any other schools? (or, at least share your educated guess on this if this can not be known for sure. Thanks!)</p>
<p>I heard a rumor that, by a magic date (March?), the schools may know some of it. Then, by another magic date (May?) , the schools will share the full list of their admitted/waitlisted students with all other schools (in order to help fill the classes for all medical schools in an more effective way.) But I do not know for sure.</p>
My guess is that, for some “special guaranteed” program starting from college, maybe even MCAT is optional. I believe (but not sure) that there are some medical schools who try extremely hard to recruit some students with some special background, including paying their UG tuitions, and all the other helps. Poor people need to have access to doctors too. The fact is that few MDs are willing to go to some very poor area to serve them.</p>
<p>to mcat2 re: schools knowing about where else you interviewed:</p>
<p>A friend and I were talking with our advisor about medical school. I was expressing some frustration about not having heard from so many of my schools after hearing from Duke, Mayo, and Northwestern pretty early on (had interview invites in October and November). Friend said that he’s not surprised, because he has friends in similar boats and that it was probably because I’d collected those great interviews early on. Advisor (who’s been around the premed block) agreed and added that he’s seen similar things happen to other applicants too.</p>
<p>I asked friend where he was getting this info, and he said that when he was at an interview at a top-ranked UC, the admissions dean he was talking with offhandedly mentioned his interview invite to another school (and they hadn’t been talking about it). He asked her how she knew, and she said that the deans of admission have access to a list of where you’ve interviewed through AMCAS in the same way they eventually have access to a list of where all you’ve been accepted through AMCAS (hence the May 15 date to choose). Add to that conversation the fact that the majority of the kids I’ve met on the interview trail have had <5 interviews (albeit all to top 20s), and it seems reasonable to me.</p>
<p>Had this been any other friend, advisor, or dean of admissions and I would have called BS. But with this combination of reliable sources, I have to believe that such a list is available. How that list is used by schools is totally unknown to me, but it seems like some of them use it to screen applicants too.</p>
<p>Seems like your son’s candidacy has attracted considerably more interviews than mine has–which could be for a variety of reasons. Perhaps he’s one of those kids that’s such an outstanding/unique applicant that schools want to spend time/resources interviewing him despite knowing that he may well choose another school where he’s interviewing!</p>